Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

I am a director, who is my employer?

93 replies

nocontrol · 23/07/2014 19:40

I will try and cut this long story short, but it is quite complicated.

I am a director of a company, along with one other person, who is based in a different office about 200 miles away. We are a very small company of 9 employees, created out of a former group of companies - which are now all separate companies running separately and nothing to do with each other, apart from sharing office premises (the office 200 miles away)

I was informed today, by one of the shareholders, that a letter would be going out to all staff tomorrow informing us all (2 directors included) that we are at risk of redundancy. She would say no more than that, she said her hands were tied, and I imagine she shouldn't have even told me that much, but as we have known each other for a while, she felt personally obliged to give me and the other director the heads-up.

Neither myself nor the other director had any idea this was coming - although the business is not making loads of money, we are "washing our faces" which is what we were tasked with when our company was split off from the others. We have no cashflow issues (although things are tight) and have had no need to go to the shareholders for cash injections for about 18 months. We have all worked hard to make the business work and all of our plans and projections suggest that we can do just that.

As with all small businesses, we accept that things are not set in stone, and that things can change rapidly, however, we (2 directors) have been feeling fairly optimistic over the recent months.

Apart from reporting back to them informally on an irregular basis, the shareholders (who are not direct shareholders in our company, it is owned by an offshore company which is then owned by them) have had nothing to do with the running of the company, so for them to swoop in and do this out of the blue has absolutely knocked me sideways.

They want me to let staff know tomorrow and then the letters will be emailed and posted tomorrow. However, my fellow director is away on holiday until Monday evening and we both feel strongly that a) the message should be delivered in person, rather than me phoning people up to tell them (which is the only alternative while she's away) and b) as we are the only 2 directors of the company, we are the people who should be making decisions about this, not 3 remote people who obviously have other agendas.

Trying to asses the legalities of this (with no expertise whatsoever) and having looked at redundancy processes online, I would like to know who is our employer? You would expect letters like this to be written by directors - but we haven't written them. If it is "the employer's" decision to put people at risk of redundancy and we as directors aren't acting as "the employer" who else has the right to make this decision? Can the shareholders legally do this completely independently of the directors?

I've been told the plan is to have consultation meetings for my office next Wednesday, and they do have a legal person involved, but I would like to be as well equipped as possible before my conversation with the shareholder tomorrow. At the very least, we want to get the letters stopped until the other director is back from her holiday and can see people face to face.

I'm sorry this is so long, I would be very grateful for any thoughts people may have.

OP posts:
nocontrol · 24/07/2014 09:11

I don't think she can tell me anything more than she has, I guess there will be more detail in the letter. In a way I don't want to know more, as that does make me look complicit.

OP posts:
flowery · 24/07/2014 09:11

I think the idea that shareholders have little power is contradictory to the fact that they appoint (and fire) the directors who make the day to day decisions but that's just my opinion.

If the directors refuse to carry this out and the shareholders do it, the employees then need to consider whether the owners of the business had the authority to make that decision or not or whether that made it an unfair process, and whether it was unfair dismissal.

If the directors are made redundant they need to decide whether a fair process was followed and whether the owners of the business have the right to make that decision. And if not, who has.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 09:12

Sufficient funds? Not right now in the bank, as have just paid salaries, but probably would, as most people are part time & haven't been employed for long.

OP posts:
nocontrol · 24/07/2014 09:16

It's not really a case of us refusing to carry out the process - we haven't been asked to, as we are included in the process. It's more a case of us wanting it to be done in a few days rather than now.

OP posts:
unlucky83 · 24/07/2014 09:20

Nocontrol - you can tell them informally - but refuse to do it formally...
You need legal advice - if eg they are trying to get out of paying redundancy pay etc they might be trying to get you to do it and therefore if there is a case for unfair dismissal you & the other director MAY be personally liable and the shareholders/company not...not worded that very well..but hope you see what I mean...
Googled - this is part of a discrimation case but explains what I mean
The judge also upheld an earlier decision that the two directors were jointly and severally liable for the employees' dismissal. This meant that the employees could pursue the two individuals for the full amount of damages due in the case regardless of the centre's share of the liability as employer. The directors would then have to pursue the centre, which was in compulsory liquidation, for its share of the damages.

TSSDNCOP · 24/07/2014 09:21

I'd be downloading as much client related data as I could. If you go, take your clients with you.

senua · 24/07/2014 09:22

I agree with flowery's second and third paragraphs.

I think that we have a difference of emphasis on the first paragraph. Yes, shareholders can fire directors, but not at will. There is a process that slows everything down so they have a waiting period before they can actually exercise their ultimate power. They can't come in and demand immediate action.

senua · 24/07/2014 09:24

What unlucky said.
CYA!

atticusclaw · 24/07/2014 09:29

The shareholders own the company. The company is your employer. The shareholders can decide to ditch the company if they wish.

If you're not a shareholder you have no power I'm afraid.

unlucky83 · 24/07/2014 09:45

Senua - CYA is exactly what I mean!
I was going to add as well - no matter how friendly you are with the other members of staff don't think they wouldn't do that do you...
If they struggle to find a new job, have a mortgage to pay and are a bit desperate and angry they have lost out on their redundancy pay and they might even get damages/compensation on top...very tempting.
And in their minds it won't really be your money because you can it back from the shareholders Hmm...
Tread very carefully!

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 10:14

So basically we should make it very clear that we are not part of the process (well not from the employer side) & we are in exactly the same position as the other employees.

OP posts:
nocontrol · 24/07/2014 10:15

The employees know very well what the shareholders are like & will understand how this is being played (having seen it all before). However, I take on board the CYA advice & will try to get myself some legal advice.

OP posts:
senua · 24/07/2014 10:22

Definitely get legal advice. And that is your get-out clause to the shareholders: whatever they say, your broken-record answer is "I'll need to get advice on that".

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 11:00

Further conversation with the shareholder. They think changes are needed in the business to ensure it grows. They couldn't discuss the changes with the directors as the changes involve us both.

Reading between the lines, I think this stems back to a meeting we had with them in May, when my fellow director questioned them quite robustly about some of the "legacy" issues that could cause us issues in the future & that one of the other formerly linked companies is in control of.

I think they took exception to her tone & have decided she could cause them problems in the future so want to get rid of her. I fear they want to keep me.

The business works because of both of us. Without her, I can't do it. That's not me being defeatist, it's me being realistic. But this means I will not be offered redundancy and will be left struggling to run the business in whatever form they decide will work until I find another job. This is basically my worst nightmare.

Sad
OP posts:
atticusclaw · 24/07/2014 13:26

Please be careful. You are an employee. You are being asked to do a job. That job is dealing with the consultation for the potentially redundant employees. If you don't do that job you could easily give the owners of the business grounds to dismiss you.

I'm an employment lawyer and I'm afraid we do fairly frequently have employees with the title of director not realising that they are employees the same as everyone else.

ChaChaChaChanges · 24/07/2014 13:33

I think you need to wait and see what happens, TBH. You're speculating and catastrophising at present.

Yes, they may get rid of your fellow director. Maybe they are right to. Maybe her replacement (and there will surely be one, assuming you're right and you can't do the job alone) will be much better at the job than she is. Maybe you'll find that she has, however inadvertently, been a brake on the business's progress. You were thrown together with her, and you are not treating her unprofessionally (and, to be fair, neither have the shareholders so far).

dinkystinky · 24/07/2014 13:39

Get some proper advice for the company and yourself as a director (and your colleague) from a lawyer specialising in insolvency - putting it simply, if the company can not meet its liabilities as it falls due, it is technically insolvent and in those circumstances directors have additional responsibilities and must operate very, very carefully to ensure that they comply with them.

If you disagree with what the shareholders are doing/telling you to do, then you (and the other directors) may need to think about resigning as a director - in which case they will need to appoint directors to the board to deal with matters.

ChaChaChaChanges · 24/07/2014 13:45

And just because all employees are at risk of redundancy certainly doesn't mean that all will be made redundant, that the business is failing, or the insolvency beckons. The OP has said they make cash and profit margins are improving. That doesn't sound like a failing business to me.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 13:46

OK, have now discussed fully with other director. We have decided to let the letters go out today and say nothing to the other employees before they go out.

I told the shareholder that although I understand why she felt she wanted to tell me prior to the letters (we previously had a friendly relationship & have been through quite a lot together), I wished she hadn't. She agreed.

We want to make it clear that this is nothing to do with us, and that we are subject to the process just the same as everyone else.

OP posts:
nocontrol · 24/07/2014 13:49

The company isn't insolvent, and isn't likely to be - it's just not growing as fast as the shareholders would like and they have "a plan" to make it do just that.

I have no faith that their plan will be sensible or workable.

It's hard not to speculate and catastrophise when you have no information - which is another reason why I decided we just need to get on with the process.

OP posts:
ChaChaChaChanges · 24/07/2014 14:19

I know. I've worked for a genuinely failing business in the past and know what it's like.

It seems that - quite aside from this current crunch point - you have no faith in the wider "group" or its shareholders. Clearly I can't tell whether your lack of faith is justified or not, but either way it must be a deeply uncomfortable position for you. In your place, I think I'd be looking round for a new position.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 17:38

Letters have been received and we have all been offered garden leave. My staff are going to take it. I can't decide what to do. Meeting is next Wed.

Any thoughts?

OP posts:
senua · 24/07/2014 18:15

it's just not growing as fast as the shareholders would like and they have "a plan" to make it do just that.
we have all been offered garden leave

Confused I'd love to know what their plan is.
Isn't there on-going work that needs seeing to, invoices to be raised, debtors to be collected?
Are you going to leave a message on the answerphone or just let it ring out like it does when companies are in trouble. You know they've gone totally belly up when they line goes dead.
If no-one else is in then it's your chance to collect data for if/when you have to find another job.

senua · 24/07/2014 19:00

When it comes to Directors, they are expected to know a certain amount about how to run a business. Ignorance is not a valid get-out clause.
You also have time before Wednesday to see an employment specialist to get advice about your own situation the law regarding lay-offs. Take the company cheque book.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 19:40

Don't take the company cheque book without authorisation.

If you are looking for advice on your own situation then you are the client and you are the one who would be billed - though the company may contribute by agreement.

If the company is the client then the advice must be for the company's benefit.