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I am a director, who is my employer?

93 replies

nocontrol · 23/07/2014 19:40

I will try and cut this long story short, but it is quite complicated.

I am a director of a company, along with one other person, who is based in a different office about 200 miles away. We are a very small company of 9 employees, created out of a former group of companies - which are now all separate companies running separately and nothing to do with each other, apart from sharing office premises (the office 200 miles away)

I was informed today, by one of the shareholders, that a letter would be going out to all staff tomorrow informing us all (2 directors included) that we are at risk of redundancy. She would say no more than that, she said her hands were tied, and I imagine she shouldn't have even told me that much, but as we have known each other for a while, she felt personally obliged to give me and the other director the heads-up.

Neither myself nor the other director had any idea this was coming - although the business is not making loads of money, we are "washing our faces" which is what we were tasked with when our company was split off from the others. We have no cashflow issues (although things are tight) and have had no need to go to the shareholders for cash injections for about 18 months. We have all worked hard to make the business work and all of our plans and projections suggest that we can do just that.

As with all small businesses, we accept that things are not set in stone, and that things can change rapidly, however, we (2 directors) have been feeling fairly optimistic over the recent months.

Apart from reporting back to them informally on an irregular basis, the shareholders (who are not direct shareholders in our company, it is owned by an offshore company which is then owned by them) have had nothing to do with the running of the company, so for them to swoop in and do this out of the blue has absolutely knocked me sideways.

They want me to let staff know tomorrow and then the letters will be emailed and posted tomorrow. However, my fellow director is away on holiday until Monday evening and we both feel strongly that a) the message should be delivered in person, rather than me phoning people up to tell them (which is the only alternative while she's away) and b) as we are the only 2 directors of the company, we are the people who should be making decisions about this, not 3 remote people who obviously have other agendas.

Trying to asses the legalities of this (with no expertise whatsoever) and having looked at redundancy processes online, I would like to know who is our employer? You would expect letters like this to be written by directors - but we haven't written them. If it is "the employer's" decision to put people at risk of redundancy and we as directors aren't acting as "the employer" who else has the right to make this decision? Can the shareholders legally do this completely independently of the directors?

I've been told the plan is to have consultation meetings for my office next Wednesday, and they do have a legal person involved, but I would like to be as well equipped as possible before my conversation with the shareholder tomorrow. At the very least, we want to get the letters stopped until the other director is back from her holiday and can see people face to face.

I'm sorry this is so long, I would be very grateful for any thoughts people may have.

OP posts:
flowery · 23/07/2014 23:13

"I don't think that they can override the board of directors (although they can dismiss them)"

Which sounds exactly like what they are doing- sounds as though they are making every single employee redundant including the directors.

senua · 23/07/2014 23:52

If they want to dismiss them as Directors then they need a meeting of shareholders to pass a resolution and file the necessary forms with Companies House.
Directors are officers of the company, they are not necessarily employees (although, often, they are both). I think that dismissal as Director and dismissal as employee are separate matters.

The procedure for removing directors from IoD

flowery · 24/07/2014 06:18

Yes I realise that, being a director of my own company myself. But I can't see anything in the OP to suggest they don't intend to do that, and presumably they will if the redundancy goes ahead. Directors who are also employees like the OP can claim unfair dismissal so the OP has that option if she is dismissed and feels the dismissal was unfair, either because she feels it is not a genuine redundancy or if she feels the people who own the company aren't the ones who have the authority to make that decision.

Yes it sounds like they haven't gone about it in the best way, but my point is that on a fundamental level, the owners of a business are the ones who get to decide if they want to make everyone redundant and thereby either stop trading altogether or whatever else. If shareholders don't have the right to decide to dismiss directors who are also employees, who does?!

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 07:34

flowery Your second paragraph answers my original question; who is my employer? So thanks for clarifying. My head is in such a mess, it's good to have the simple facts made clear.

So I guess now I need to work out how I deal with this. They have a track record of deciding what they want to happen and then manipulating the redundancy process to achieve their goal. I need to use this knowledge to my advantage.

OP posts:
saintlyjimjams · 24/07/2014 07:45

No advice, but good luck. Could you do freelance/contract work with your current clients if they're winding up the company? I hate employing/managing people, but quite like self employed/freelance work.

senua · 24/07/2014 08:17

The employer is the company, which is controlled by the directors - they make day-to-day decisions.
The company is owned by the shareholders but they have little power. They appoint directors and delegate executive power to them.

Thus if your shareholders want to close down then (unless you agree to go along with it) they have to get rid of you first and appoint their stooges instead and then start the redundancy process. They can't make you start the process for them. You are answerable for your own actions, you can't say "they made me do it".

Everything is about proper process.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 08:38

So I guess they will get rid of us first...because we will not run the process for them.

The decision makes no sense looking at the company as a standalone. However, in the context of the companies owned by the shareholders (which used to be a group but are all now run completely separately), then there may be things going on that mean they need to get rid of our company.

It's very frustrating. I am talking to the shareholder who I spoke to yesterday at 9 this morning & my immediate goal is to stop the process until the other director is back from her break - and to try and arrange to meet with them both face to face next week.

OP posts:
ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 08:45

Would the shareholder in question ring the employees, if she would like them told?

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 08:49

Do you mean will she do it if we won't? Or will she do it so we don't have to?

Either way, if anyone has to tell them, we want it to be us & we want to do it face to face. These are people I care about & don't think it's right for them to have the news like that.

OP posts:
ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 08:53

I guess I meant as it's coming from the shareholders, it seems better for her to tell them. But I understand where you are coming from.

What if she met your colleague at the office on Monday with all the letters? Then there wouldn't so much of a delay in letters being sent.

You will be up against the fact that they have taken legal advice on structuring a process and minimum consultation periods and they will want to work around the meeting on Wednesday

senua · 24/07/2014 08:54

Probably the best route is to stall her at 9 o'clock with a agreement to meet next week. Gives you time to get proper legal advice and plan.

Alternately, you could let them carry on (because they're going to anyway) ... and then sue them for not following proper process.Wink

Whatever you do: Cover Your Ass!

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 08:54

So whatever you propose to her about changing it, she will probably need to check.

senua · 24/07/2014 08:56

if anyone has to tell them, we want it to be us & we want to do it face to face.

But if you do it then that implies that you agree with it!!! Don't do someone else's dirty work.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 08:57

Yes, I would like to think they would do us the courtesy of at least waiting until the other director is back from holiday.

I have legal expenses cover with my home insurance, will talk to them today to see if they can help with legal guidance...

OP posts:
OhILoveAGoodNameChange · 24/07/2014 08:58

nocontrol - is there an opportunity here?

the shareholders want...a smooth exit. reduced chance of HR problems...maybe some money.

would you want to own a version of the company? take the best clients etc.

is the company more profitable in a different format?

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 08:59

"But if you do it then that implies that you agree with it!!! Don't do someone else's dirty work."

Not if OP explains she is also under threat.

I am surprised that they would let you tell them though, as you haven't had the legal advice on handling the process.

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 08:59

I see what you mean about doing their dirty work. But I just don't feel comfortable doing it any other way. It will be easy for me to make it clear what my feelings are...

Unless you think that legally it will make a difference?

OP posts:
senua · 24/07/2014 08:59

Is it co-incidence that this has happened while the other director is away?Hmm

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 09:00

I don't think she was meant to tell me. This is just her trying to assuage her conscience.

OP posts:
nocontrol · 24/07/2014 09:02

She said she didn't know the other director is away, but the thought did cross my mind.

OP posts:
senua · 24/07/2014 09:04

It will be easy for me to make it clear what my feelings are...

You are the directors, you are in charge. You either agree with this or you don't. You can't say "I'm firing you all even though I think it's wrong".

What could the other director do to you if you followed this course of action without their agreement? I would have thought that this needs a minuted board resolution.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 09:07

Senua, that's not what would be said. What would be said is something like "there is a redundancy consultation process involving all employees of the company, including me and X. There will be a letter going out and a meeting about this on Wednesday."

No one should be saying " you are all fired".

nocontrol · 24/07/2014 09:07

I wouldn't say that I am firing them, because I'm not. I would say that I've been told we are all going to receive letters informing us that we are all at risk of redundancy.

Interestingly, we have no meeting room at our office, so I don't know where they are thinking of holding the meetings next Wed & am not inclined to help them organise that...

OP posts:
ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 24/07/2014 09:08

Will they officially tell you the full process plan so you can answer questions?

Quejica · 24/07/2014 09:11

Does the company have sufficient funds to pay proper redundancy payments to staff?