High earning mothers

[ClarissaG]

I'm interested to start a discussion group for Mums and Mums to be who are juggling (or planning to juggle) a high flying career and motherhood. I loath to use the term 'Power Mums', but those who earn enough (£100k plus) to afford a team of help, but have the kind of pressures and working hour expectations that that level of salary brings.

I read the Mumsnet Guest blog with interest (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_blogs/1977242-Why-is-society-so-unsupportive-of-high-achieving-power-mums) but the comments less so.

Is there scope for a supportive group for such Mums with practical ideas, experiences and thoughts rather than judgement about whether we can 'have it all'?

I am mid thirties, a VC, 12 weeks pregnant and have not yet told my fellow partners. I want it all but have no idea if that is realistic or how my future is going to pan out!

Sounds good mini. Could you say what the forum was, perhaps in a pm? I am also putting the word out locally (via friends with nannies etc) as I've been told that the local nannies all know each other and will know of nannies with a job ending soon who might be interested. I have also been in touch with one emergency nanny we had a few weeks ago whom we particularly liked.

I had never once thought about having a career in common with my girls until they left university and surprisingly picked what I do or something similar. I do remember my father, a psychiatrist, having that in common with my siblings. It is certainly not a major issue but it is rather a nice consequence of working in that kind of job if a child follows you into it. I am not sure they are always pleased when I give them copies of my latest law book (laughing as I type)..... Other parents probably hand over handbags as presents.

I know I am unusual in having 5 children. When I was 14 I was very very maternal and always was. It was a life aim to have a lot of children and I started young as well a life aim to do well in my career. I was reading pamphlets from the NCT (my mother was one of the first NCT members) when I was 13 about the best physical position in which go give birth etc. Most of my colleagues and friends had their babies nearly 15 years after I did. Very few people except those on a second marriage have babies spread over as many years as I have too.

I think I would like to post on this thread, although I mentioned previously that I fall short of the 6-figure bracket! I'm on approx. 70k once you tot up my base salary, benefits and bonus, and that's in the north, in industry. You need to be one level up from me to get into 6 figures.

I couldn't imagine not working, and have always been proud to be financially independent. My parents come from extremely poor (immigrant) families, so I know they have been proud of us to get to where we are.

I'm about to take a fairly dramatic career change, retraining to be a secondary teacher. I'm wobbling about the massive salary reduction, but in my heart I feel it's the right time. My youngest will start school at the same time as I qualify, and one of the reasons I'm retraining is to align my holidays with the children, and get home earlier during the week - I'm anticipating evening/weekend working during term time. I struggle with not seeing them as much as they, and I would like to, even though we have a great live-out nanny, and grandparents close by.

My husband is a high earner (he probably touches the 6 figure mark), and supportive.

It feels like a massive leap of faith. I've had some really good times at work, and I hope that I can leave the door open to return in case it all goes catastrophically wrong. But I've enjoyed being in the classroom, and find myself really excited by the future.

I don't have anything in common career wise with my mum and it hasn't been important. In the beginning she hated how relentless I was in pursuing promotions etc and would express her concern all the time that it was taking a toll on me. While I don't talk to her about the job, I do talk about issues I face, usually people related ones. She has been a fantastic shoulder for me to cry on during my entire career, giving me good advice. Or just listening to me.

My mum had a career and worked to 60 (I think taking 12 weeks off with each child). Dmil is also really supportive both of me, dh and dsil. She was a sahm. I think as both df and dfil worked in senior positions in organisations, both in finance, they have had a lifetime of supporting them and that's where the experience comes from.

In contrast, dh has his limits as to how much he can listen to me banging on about the same issue over and over again. He has his own stressful career and his way of decompressing is not to talk about it. It does mean that if I am really going through something at work, it can be a little lonely. That's where dm and dmil come in, that sympathetic ear is really appreciated.

I don't think our nanny will quit on me, the bad weeks are only about 1 in 8 and the flip side is when we are around and work from home she gets to leave quite early a couple of days most weeks. I really hope she sticks it out as she is brilliant and I don't fancy live in. We are in zone 2 and plan to add a loft conversion for a 5th bedroom this summer for a potential DC 2 but wouldn't look at getting more indoor space - i think if we moved up it would be for a bigger garden. Not an extra bedroom.

My mum was a SAHM until I was about 5, then PT until I was 12 or so. On days when I worry that my DD will be miserable with someone other than me taking care of her I remember this and then compare it to my vague sense that my dad did as much parenting as my mum. Despite him doing long hours and frequent travel. I remember him being there for all the stuff I remember as important.

My mum was an admin assistant because a career wasn't an option. She has no clue what I do and shares the concern about what the hours and drive does. But she feels the same about DP so it's not just because I am her daughter and a woman.

I do wish she got it a bit more but in some ways I think it keeps me a bit more grounded and gives perspective to the high earning, London bubble.

And it's 1.38 and I have just finished working. Hard not to look wistfully across at an easier role

Think, poor you. I suppose plenty of women at home though might have spent 10 - 2am holding a screaming baby over their children. I'm not sure that is easier. Also look at the mumsnet divorce threads where a lot of women are left by their husband and have no income (some people being very skilled at hiding it from their spouse) so I am sure it will be worthwhile. I think it's not when it's constant. My daughter has been pretty good at complaining when it gets too much, night after night and the firm do their best to improve it when they can. For me the nicest thing at the moment about being 50 (just) and working for myself and mostly from the house is although my hours are long I can usually get to bed at 10 and I am in charge. I would not have that flexibility nor the money I earn now had I not worked as I did when I was younger.

My mother kept my father for over 10 years when he was training - Bsc, then did a medical degree, then all those years becoming a consultant, exams until he was 30 (she was a teacher) so we had a very strong feminist tradition in the family. He own mother took herself off to India in the 1920s to work which was very brave from her fairly poor background and then when she married back here her husband died 1 year after marriage leaving her with my mother - a baby so she obviously always worked too. My father's aunts worked in the 1920s as well so I think we were just one of those families on both sides where women have always worked which makes it much easier to forge a career as no one is expecting women to be at home nor women to serve men at home and we all expect men to pull their weight or they get at kick up the bottom.

Right I got up to get on with about 6 contracts (I am a morning person, so it's no problem, at my best now although for about 25 years I've had children to get to school at this time - half term this week so none of that) before anyone starts disturbing me. Part of being relatively senior is I can sometimes say I will do that tomorrow. In another company I would have done it late into the night and not as well as I'd have been tired. Also I keep all the money which I like, make no bones about that - I eat what I kill. If I work hard I bill a lot and it's all my money not for someone else';s profit. That made a huge difference to how I felt about work.

Z, good luck with the career change. It sounds like something you want to do. My mother was a teacher and had loads of funny stories about it. I think she was pretty good although I never attended any of her classes. I am sure most of us earning a lot on this thread in part owe that to good teachers.

Wow your family sound cool Laura!

It's interesting that actually most of our great grandmothers worked and earned a fair share of the family income. In factories but then not many of either gender had careers. I'm from mostly mining stock so for generations girls went into service at 14 then came home and married miners who earned enough to keep a family of 7 or 8, who kept mum busy. But she also took washing in etc. or did cleaning. I suppose hard work is my inheritance rather than feminism!

DD was still up at 6am and DP is away so not sure mums at home have it so much easier! But I'm still seriously planning DC2 so I can hardly complain too much!

Yes, re: mothers I meant not so much being in the same career as understanding the pressures of a career you take seriously at all. (My mother did work, both before she married and then after she was widowed very young and before she married again, but each time she stopped when she married/had children.)

Z I am a lecturer not a school teacher but teaching (undergrad/grad/PhD and in terms of seminars/presentations etc) is obviously a key component of my work. I love teaching and find it very rewarding, though it is important to me that it is only one part of what I do. One thing that I think is sometimes underestimated about teaching is how performative it is and how much it is worth thinking about 'performance skills' (for want of a better phrase). Good luck with your career change - very exciting! What subject will you be teaching?

Obviously as a lecturer I really don't belong on this thread, but I have not found anywhere else such a useful, supportive and unapologetic discussion of how to combine a serious commitment to a full-time career you love and find very rewarding with a young family. Also my bit of HE sounds like a lot of your jobs in that women are very underrepresented, and there are very few role models of more senior women who have combined work with children.

Yes, women have always worked although those keen to keep them at home for political, cultural or religious reasons like to pretend there was a past golden age where women never worked.
Even in the early 1800s my father's and probably my mother's ancestors were working but in those days it would have been on the farm.

(I meant holding the crying baby over your shoulder above not over the other children ! - funny typo)

[I lecture about 50 days a year by the way as an extra. It is the hardest work I do as it's often all day]

plenty of women at home though might have spent 10 - 2am holding a screaming baby over their children. I'm not sure that is easier

Laura, there's a logic gap here! Working mothers also have to deal with screaming baby 10-2am. Sadly being a WOHM doesn't get you out of the sleepless nights as I'm sure you know.

Yes, I think I was being sympathetic for her late night. I was just trying to console and say had you been home it might not have been a bundle of fun either. In our case their did the late night holding of babies and I went to bed as I am more of a morning than an evening person.

I knew what you meant Laura. Although I was at home last night so had a nice early wake up.

My mom never worked after she got married and to be honest, I think she didn't enjoy being a SAHM. As I have become more senior at my job, my dad has been great for talking about issues (like novice's, mostly people issues).

I am loving this thread. I mentioned earlier that I am trying to figure out what to do with my life and being able to hear about your experiences and knowing I could ask for advice here does help towards keeping the high pressure career as an option.

If you want some light reading... I think it's Giles Coren of the Times whose wife has written an article today about how boring being with children 24/7 is (as indeed it is and most adults want variety instead and a balanced life). Good of her (Daily mail) - www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2563361/Im-stay-home-mother-childcare-SO-boring-Ive-hired-nanny.html

Hmm "good for her" with a caveat. If she's getting a nanny so she can have a bit of recovery time and then build up her freelance writing, great, good for her.

If she's not really intending to work much but mainly wants to have a nanny so she can have "me time" (the article is a bit unclear about this) ... I do struggle a bit with that.

There are quite a few women near me who have full time child care but don't work (and have no intention to ever work, it's not like they are retraining). I wouldn't want to be in that position as it would effectively mean my DH was working to support me having free time every day. Which wouldn't be fair and I think DH would quickly become resentful. Or he'd expect me to become some sort of 50s housewife and spend that time cooking dinner and beautifying myself/the house.

The comments under the article are predictable... "why did you have children" yawn. No-one ever says that to men who prefer not to look after their kids all day.

Hello all

Well, I definitely don't fit into your definition of "power mum" under earnings. But I have read this discussion with interest and if I can interpret "power mum" (or in my case, "power-mum-in-waiting") as a woman who values her career, sees work as core to her identity, a source of pride, value and self-worth, as bringing value to her life and the family.... then I hope you don't mind me joining in.

I work for a charity. I work in a team responsible for £75m p/a and I am personally responsible for £5m. I earn £35k. I accept I don't have the same level of pressure and working hours that many of you do, but in order to be successful here you have to go the extra mile (work longer hours, pay for your own training, there is no 'promotion track' (we'd rather hire from outside the industry than train our own) so you have to push for it and create your own opportunities, etc), and I'm proud to have got to where I have by working hard - and being good at what I do.

Thank you for giving me something to really chew over. Working at a charity, there are far more women than men, and it is often seen as a place that is women friendly. But this only works one way - yes maternity leave is long (although badly paid) and hours are flexible. But there is no support for the alternative - eg come back to work quickly. Noone takes less than a year's maternity leave. There would be gasps of horror from colleagues if I was to come back after three months and leave my child with a nanny.

And I don't even believe this is helping women here - while we have far more women than men working here, they are almost all in the lower level jobs. The board and the senior managers are all men - or childless women. The "flexible" and "helpful" attitude to mothering, while great for women who want to spend time with their children is, I believe, stopping women reach senior positions.

It also has an impact on the quality of work - my organisation never negotiates or turns down a request for part time hours and there are so many people doing jobs that cannot be done in the hours they work (NB here there is not the culture that you leave and continue working at home - so part time means part time, and performance suffers).

This thread has made me have a long hard think about my career. I've worked bloody hard to get where I am - including self-funding all training and development - and I'm good at what I do. I'm desperate not to lose that when I become a mother (currently ttc). Salary isn't a motivator for me. But I love my job, and I believe I have a lot to offer this organisation, and I want to progress. I don't want a five year gap around children.

After reading this thread, I googled it and surprised myself - actually, a part-time nanny is doable, albeit netting out at zero income for me, and although I wouldn't be making any money, I'd be keeping myself in the game. There are other options - childminders, shared nannies, part time and DH part time.... it can be done.

Anyway - thank you all - this has transformed how I'm thinking about the next few years....

Oh - - and have a great DH who says his mother is to thank for his amazing attitude to household responsibilities. She worked a mixture of part-time / not at all / full time with her three kids, and had a housekeeper, but he says his mum made household responsibilities apply to all - husband and kids included. He totally gets the "no-one says that to men" bit about childcare/working and he's planning on asking to go part-time when we have kids, career suicide or not (DH is a director) - on the basis that his (female) CEO did it, so why shouldn't he?

Potatoes - it sounds as though you have done very well. There certainly isn't an income level below which people cannot join the thread.

I have always supported that view too although it is not popular with mothers. Ut is the argument that taking too much leave and giving women too many "rights" means they are pushed into a ghetto of being at home and low earnings as they have rights their husbands do not have. In a sense it is the state and society payment or encouraging them not to excel at work. The longer the leave the employer gives the more likely women are damaged is the argument. I accept many will not agree with me but it does mean your husband isn't likely to take a year off if you would be paid for half of it and he would not so it entrenches sexist patterns.

Do I earn so much now because when I had the 5 children I had virtually no maternity rights? That is the interesting question. I don't think that's the only reason - it's because I researched careers hard in my teens, was lucky enough to do well in exams and like my work and have been a feminist all my life but it is one reason. When I had the first 3 children you had to have worked for the employer for 2 years before you could have the 6 weeks on 90% pay. I did not qualify with any of the first three children so use 2 weeks of holiday as my entire leave (and I think 5 weeks with the 3rd). Then with the twins more recentl, I work for myself so I get no pay and no leave rights at all so was taking calls the next day from clients which I was happy to do.

(mini, I have read a few articles by her and more by her husband in the Times. I've certainly said my piece there about what seems to be a fairly sexist marriage in their case. He writes about his family life quite a lot which is quite interesting but I always felt his wife did a lot more at home than he did).

Thanks LauraBridges and Kalidasa for your good wishes - I'm going to train to teach maths - it's a subject that I always enjoyed in school, so I hope that I can pass that passion onto my students. I will have to do a knowledge enhancement course before I start, so will be studying and working for some months whilst I work my notice.

For me, on teacher's hours, I think I would be satisfied with earning a salary of minimum 35k. I know it'll take a few years to get back to that level, but I may decide to look more at the management side of things in the future. I'm glad you mentioned that my presentation skills will come in useful too..... as I have suffered from death by powerpoint on many occasions!

Agree with Potatoes that it is great to have a thread where women can talk about their careers without having to apologise for the fact that it takes them away from their families. When I hear/read the judgement cast on women who "choose to work", rather than those who work because they have to, I admit it does get to me sometimes. I am very definitely one of those women who chooses to work, but by the same factor, you could say my husband also chooses to work, as I could "keep" him too .

I agree Potatoes and Laura that extensive maternity rights - in particular when contrasted with teeny tiny paternity rights - can actually be unhelpful to women in some ways.

It makes it obvious that it will be the woman who stays home for the first months/year (since she's the one with the legal right to do so and get paid for it). That in turn seems to cement the woman as the "main parent", which means even when back at work she ends up responsible for most of the DC related tasks (buying new clothes, childcare admin, activities, cuddles in the night, etc).

I am in favour of compulsory paternity leave of at least 3 weeks - without the mother being there ie once she is back at work - men need to have experience of what it's like being in sole charge for days on end.

And that's without even starting on its effect on how employers view women. I don't blame employers, especially small businesses, for being wary of employing women of child bearing age. Again, some compulsory paternity leave would go some way towards evening things up here.

I agree with that, mini pie.

Zxh, similar for us - either DH or I could afford to SAH but we both choose to work.

My daughter's last boss who was quite senior had her first baby and took 3 moths off (I think on full pay or may be half pay as long as she returned after). Her husband who worked for the same company then took 6 months off whilst the mother went back to work fulltime. Their company chooses to have generous maternity AND paternity leave. It seemed to work well for that couple although it's unusual.

Laura actually DH and I were planning on doing something like this after our next baby - I'd take about 5 months then he'd take 6. In fact it might not work out because of the timing, but we'll still do it if we can.

(I've just been asked on to Women's Hour next week to talk about women and work which should be interesting.).

I have finally got to the end of this thread! I've been reading it for well over a week! Great thread, thank you all. I've watched the Sheryl Sandberg TED talk, made a list of books to look into/buy, read the linked articles and put more thought into the whole thing. Inspiring stuff here, thank you.

I'm not in the City but based in a regional city with a middle/senior role in a prof services firm. My salary would 'qualify' for this thread if I was in our London team. But I have read this thread with a view to the future. It's pretty timely for me - I'm 32 and 39 weeks pg with DC2.

Between DCs I went back to work more focused, ambitious and determined than ever. There is a real lack of role models though (thinking ideally female).

However I am often told how much harder it will be with 2. So I guess I should wait and see how I feel. But really don't want to 'lean out' at this stage.