Have you missed work opportunities through being a mum?

[Sheila]

Hi all, I work four days a week and have one ds who's nearly 4. This morning I was really flattered to be rung up and offered a job, but had to turn it down because it would involve longs hours and nights away from home.

What was most discouraging was that the guy offering the job went completely cold on me when I said I had a child - he promised to send me details anyway via e-mail but nothing has appeared.

This is the first time I've really been made aware of positively losing out through motherhood. I simply don't have the flexibility to go for better paid jobs that involve moving/working long hours/working away from home. It's particularly difficult because I'm a single parent and don't have local backup, but it must be the same for most mums (but probably not dads, she thought bitterly!). My contract here ends in 18 months and I'm really worrying about what I'm going to do.

Bit of a ramble but I'd be really interested to hear whether this is a common thing for others.

You're not alone. I'm in a position now where any promotion has a pre-requisite of a number of residential courses, which "out of consideration for family life" my (single/childless) boss will not send anyone with children on. Funny that he's not so considerate when it comes down to working late nights and unpaid overtime ....

I quit my last job partly because the long hours (11-12 hour days) were difficult to reconcile with the short hours offered by nursery care (less than 10 hours). Then one day DS had to go in to see HV for a hearing test at 11am, and my boss had scheduled something else that day. He was extremely het up that I wanted to take the day off; in the end I got DH to take the day off work.

Even though it had been thoroughly discussed at my initial interview (2 years before I became a mom!) that holiday cover would need to be obtained for the field measurements (twice monthly), when it came down to it my boss was aghast that I would dare to take a holiday -- or take time off for my kids.

I think I would have quit the job, anyway, eventually, but the conflicts with doing the job and being a parent clinched it; made it sooner rather than later.

Both my dh and I have turned down interesting assignments in New York, but really it's because we don't like being away from home and from ds. So I suppose it is a choice really. In the old days I would have taken them up like a shot.

BTW I think residential courses/team building etc are all utter crap. I am more delighted than I can say to know that I will never go on one again as long as I live.

It does affect men as well. My dh has had to turn down jobs because of schooling issues.

I know that I am on the mummy track, although I am quite senior. I work three days, although I step up to four when the pressure is on. It always annoys me when I have to though as I have to get temp childcare and my boss never says 'thanks for being flexible'. My DH bears some of the brunt as he is less well paid, so he does a lot of missing out on overtime, covering for me when I travel abroad and having to opt out of his work related things so I can do mine. Good egg really. Don't know how you would do it unless one of you recognises that their job is less well paid, so they have to be flexible. Still am massively convinced that I am underpaid and underpromoted as I am only 3 dayer!!!!!

Yes! Got offered a really interesting job in international radio production (first and only offer of radio work) just as I got pregnant. It was a freelance contract with loads of long distance travel, they didn't want someone who would have to interrupt the project for maternity leave. Am now contemplating another job application which would take me abroad for frequent and sometimes long periods, but suspect that I won't because I really don't want to be away from DS.

GillW isn't that illegal?? Your boss could be done for sex discrimination, unless he never sends dads on these courses either. Seriously I would look into it, it maybe that you don't want any promotion that could be on offer, but surely that's not the point if you were capable

Sheila - that's very dispiriting.
I think it is very common and, in our case, applies as much to DP as to me. I have got a fairly senior job, but know that there are opportunities within the job that are not open to me because of my commitments at home. It is a choice I make tho - I am not actively discriminated against but I realise that I can't/ don't want to make the commitment to work the extra hours or be in the office more - I work from home two days a week and that definitely affects the perception people have of me now. My Dp has definitely missed out on job opportunities because he works part time to share some of the childcare with me.

According to the Work Foundation (study last year), "In contrast to most statistics for women,
where having children can affect career progression (senior women are much less
likely to have children than their male counterparts), having children or having young
children makes no difference to how well men are doing in their career."

Sorry, that wasn't meant to get at anyone's male partner, I just thought it made a point about women working.

Crunchie - apparently it is perfectly legal, as it applies to parents in general, not mothers in particular, and there's no law yet about parental discrimination

I work/used to work in a male dominated field. (In fact know of someone (she)who got sterilsed and made sure to tell her potential employers about it.) Anyway, used to get these fantastic jobs promised ; well 2 children later I find myself (nearly) unemployed.
Sorry but quite bitter and depressed about it

yes - offered promotion before dd1 - when I came back after maternity leave the job had been given to someone else (male of course). It was for the better in the end as the promotion would have meant more travel which would have been difficult with children!

motherinferior - I am sure that's true where men continue to work in the same way pre- and post- children. My Dp has totally changed his working life to be able to see more of our children, in much the same way as a woman would 'traditionally' have done ie not progressing up the ladder, going part time etc.

Yes - my "dream job" has been talked about in the office for about 2 years and practically promised to me, but team involved couldn't get headcount. Headcount approval came through 2 days before I announced my pregnancy and once I had it was taken for granted that I wouldn't be applying. I mean I didn't want it anymore and they do need somebody now, but it was the way everybody assumed that my pregnancy took me out of the running that really annoyed me

I did some mad things in my last job regarding travel, in an attempt to stay in my (female single parent) boss's good books, went all over Eastern Europe flying on dodgy airlines when I was preg with DD2, including flying to Moscow for a conference when I was about 7 months pregnant. And what did she write in my report? "Tanzie has a young family and has been pregnant twice during the past three years and does not work out of hours or want to travel much for these reasons " (or words to that effect). She also queried my "commitment" as my Dad died suddenly and I was flying back to UK every 4-6 weeks to spend a long weekedn with my mother who was threatening suicide. No, I didn't get the promotion, yes, I am still bitter about it, but now I think, stuff it, I don't have a career and my family comes first. Ill child? Day off (annual leave of course). Lots of travel? No thanks (but am going away for a week to E Europe again later on this month). Am still working long hours, but if I'm not busy, I go home early and ignore the raised eyebrows and comments about "half day?"

I definitely don't get the same opportunities offered to me, and this is not just because I am in a position to, and do, refuse antisocial opportunities, viz staying away from home, awkward travelling with very early starts, and so on (am lone parent too, Sheila). What you have to remember is that it is not solely because you are a mother nor because you don't love your job: it is because you have made different priorities in your life. Some fathers and some childless people do this too. I just had a weird conversation in the tea room with my childless male colleague now. He said, "Been doing anything exciting?" as the kettle boiled. So, I told him that I had just been away for the first time on a yoga weekend which I had really enjoyed, and that we had been on a lovely camp the previous weekend with ds's children's group. He then told me that he was working flat out and said, "Isn't it funny when you work all weekend and so does the client, but he doesn't get paid," (in our job we bill by the hour). He had been talking about work when he said "anything exciting"! I said that I did not work at weekends, and he then said I must be very organised, and surely I must be doing paperwork at home at the weekend. He listed what he had to do this week. I then said how long I thought each task would take, and that he could get it done by Friday, and he said it would take 1/2 day longer for each task. Then I said, smiling, "Perhaps I should be billing more then!" and he said, "Oh, I don't necessarily bill all the time I spend". Perhaps he is perceived as more "successful" and promotable than me, but my personal perception is that he is living to work, and I am working to live. I hope that you can find a job where you can earn a decent and interesting living, but avoid having to make work the be-all and end-all of your life. Is it worth ringing up the people who offered you the job and saying that you would like to accept but make a formal request that you can work flexibly? You can ask your union or CAB for advice about this.

I've downshifted because of being a mum. Am doing a dull job way below my capabilities, skills and experience, earning less than a quarter of what I used to earn, but it allows me to function as a mother and pay the mortgage at the same time. Until employers are forced by law to offer flexitime, reduced hours, job-shares etc., I think the majority of mothers just have to accept that they can't function in their jobs and function as mothers at the same time - employers and children just won't let them! And unfortunately, the majority of part-time jobs are badly paid and low skilled. Some mothers are lucky and have enlightened employers, but it looks like they are in the minority. Ho hum. How many years after equal opps legislation is it?

I still work i the same job technically, but my projects since becoming a Mum are much smaller. I work in Event Management and before DS I would travel 2 or 3 times a month - UK and overseas. Now I get to plan all of the smaller UK meetings which do not need on site support, or simply assist in the planning stages of the larger events or act as an office based secretariat. My colleagues get to fly here there and everywhere and I don't. But this suits me for now, and I am very lucky in that my boss is very family friendly. I think that no matter how hard you work developing your career you are most certainly 'professionally derailed' by Motherhood.

Working in the city and being a mum just don't go. I returned to work after DS and was immediatley working 13-15 hour days and weekends and extensive travel. I didn't see him for a solid 3 weeks, even though we were both in the same country one time. The bosses in my group had kids but all had wives at home to look after them.

Its not that my office don't want me to work, in fact they have offered me large bonuses to stay, and have suggested that my DH gives up work to look after DS. But it just isn't me I love what I do, but I love me son and what to see him grow up.

What they won't accept is any other type of working i.e working from home in evenings, total hours in a year contract. As a consequence now doing 9-5 job for a few months getting my head together waiting to go on maternity leave and never return to work again!!

I honestly don't know how I'd handle a Proper Job these days...

I'm interested in this discussion as I'm looking for a job atm and the idea is that I'll be the main breadwinner while Dp is a SAHD. We had a discussion about it last night where I got stressed about the fact that a job that pays me well enough for us to be able to afford a mortgage is going to involve stress and long hours for me and not seeing enough of dp and my children. My cunning plan (and I can see that this may not work!) is to start a job, impress them (I hope) and then start expounding my philosophy which is that you can do a good and important job without working all the hours God sends. If you can't do your job in the time available you either a) have too much work and need to lose some of it or b) you need to prioritise it and work smarter. I hate this long working hours culture, it's pants but I do appreciate that in many (most?) cases it's the people who put in the hours that get the promotions etc as per Outofpractice's post. I'm wondering about working smarter myself by doing things like delaying sending an email until 9pm just so my boss can see I've been working at 9pm when actually I only logged on to mumsnet and send that email, written earlier. Kind of like the jacket on the back of the chair while you go for a long lunch