Denying your kid's existence??

[Charlene1]

In order to increase your chances of going back to work, what do you put on application forms/cv's/say in interviews etc. to explain being a sahm? Do you cover it up and put "domestic responsibilities" and not actually mention you had kids. Do you mention it at every opportunity and emphasise things like being able to do 18 things at once and manage time/budgets etc.
What do you say if an employer asks if you have kids/plan on any/any more/what childcare arrangements you have/refuses to employ you as you have them etc. (I know, it's illegal to ask, but I was asked loads of times by different companies before I ever dreamed of having kids).
Worried if I want to get a job, I'd have to "deny my kids exist" in order to get one and agree to any hours etc. over and above contracted ones to keep it and suffer the consequences. #when I worked for a certain supermarket years ago, parents were treated like crap. They were "not committed", a "pita" to rota for etc. Wouldn't want someone to see me as that.

This is intresting for me too, as I'm applying for a new job now. I don't say anything on my cv about my age (although they could work that out by when I graduated etc.) family status, or that I actually want 3 days/week not full-time (unless you are asked to be specific about that).

I thought long and hard about that, but in the end was advised that I should advertise myself as an employee - if they like you as an employee, they might consider you as a part-timer, but vice versa... with some companies you won't even get through the door.

In my case, because of the nature of the job I do it is helpful to have flexible childcare in place, and I do, so I feel that it is in my interests to say that. I judge each case individually though - I like to have it slip into the conversation though, not make a huge announcement about it. In my case, because I am asking for part-time hours it is fairly obvious that I'm a mum, and most of the time, the people interviewing me have kids too, so it is fairly natural.

I wouldn't directly answer about kids-to-be, because I wouldn't consider it relevant. But having said that, I try to give the impression that I see the job as being long-term - I'm not about to have another and not go back. In my case part of the answer to a perfectly legitimate question "Why are you leaving your current employer" - is that they can't accomodate my wish for 3 days/week, and I want a job that I can see myself in for the forseeable future, and if I went back 4 days I wouldn't be as committed because I would resent it and be looking for something else all the time. So that leaves me open to the possibility of having more kids, but also says (without actually saying it) that if I did, I would still want to return to work again.

What line of work are you in? I think that probably makes a huge difference.

None - that's the whole point!! Have been discriminated against:
Years ago, before ever getting pregnant: ooh, you might get pregnant, then it'd cost us money - are you using contraception?; "do you plan to have kids - who'd look after them - how much maternity leave would you be thinking of if you did; sorry we want a man who won't whinge about travel and overnight stays.
During pregnancy: sorry, you're suddenly redundant (despite being promoted 4 wks before telling boss my news); then getting told by an agency when I told them I was pregnant: "sorry you're a liability, not employing you, don't want pregnant people/you'll be taking time off for illness and appts etc./cost too much.
This is NOT a wind up by the way, this was what happened to me. I couldn't prove anything as it was verbal and they would have denied it, and couldn't afford to take them to court over it all anyway. Hence my OP of asking what other people do, whether you think you'd face discrimination or not.

Right, sorry to revive old thread, but I am p'd off.

Well, my worst fears have been realised on this subject.
Thought of setting up own business, can't do it as no money, so have decided to go back to work.
Applied to agencies. I am getting
"What have you done since year x, oh nothing, right."
"Have you been sitting around doing nothing".
"Why haven't you had a paid job or worked part time for money"
"Can't you do them hours - got problems with childcare?" "How old are your kids?"
"Oh you want more money than others to pay for nursery fees - will you be getting tax credits?"
"We have stronger candidates than you who are working up to today"
"You have no recent experience"
"Can't you work miles away?"
(One job, where mgr works p/t cos she has kids moaned about considering me cos I didn't want to work 8.30-5 and do all her work basically, for crap money).

Is this even legal - how do they get away with saying things like this, or am I just over sensitive?

Have got "interviews" tomorrow to register with more agencies for "any job". It is so degrading.
They want to find out what I've been doing - I've said it all on my CV and on the phone.
I am crap at interviews, I will just get defensive or stutter my way through it if they intimidate me.

Going back to OP, I've worded enquiries about the gap on CV as "career break" or "domestic responsibilities".
Seems that's to be sneered at.

These people I'm dealing with are jumped up bloody women who either have no kids/are career mad/generally nasty.
I want to get a job that starts after 9 if poss and finish no later than 5.30, or finishes early one day etc. for a decent wage. I feel awful about "slamming" my poor kids into f/t nursery, but looks like I haven't got a choice. The kids love the nursery we've picked and can't wait to go, but they don't understand they're going to be there all week.

It's only basic office work that I'm applying for, I don't see how they can justify the stupid hours I'd have to be there. I don't want to be in contact with the public, so I don't see why I have to be there all that time.
Am also getting looks of horror off people when I tell them I'm going to be working soon, making me feel even more cruel. Am having to justify myself to everyone and explain why I can't do p/t (doesn't pay enough).
I need a job quick as we're really broke, but I've only got one interview with a "real" company so far (next week), and not even getting replies from most places - agency or companies.
DP says I can't do anything about it legally as again, it's all verbal and they're entitled to ask for people who are currently working or who have transport etc.
It feels like no one wants me only as a "back up" to interview if they can't find anyone else willing to work for peanuts.
Certain agencies have come out with crap like yeah, we'll get you a job - work nights/weekends/20 miles away/loads less money than I specified I needed - oh sorry, if you can't do that, can't help you.
It's not as if I'm being fussy - there are about 200 employers in walking distance of my house, all doing different things - there's loads of jobs - just "better people" applying apparently. I have registered with all the agencies, done the jobcentre/papers etc, sent cv's off asking for work.
I am trying to stay positive, but it's getting to me now. I'm angry about this, but it's starting to upset me - I don't want to believe I'm unemployable and crap.
Everyone I know who works went back p/t after about 6 mths maternity leave, so have no one to compare notes with.
I read the eve article mentioned on another thread, so I know it happens to other women, and I'm feeling sorry for myself, but any thoughts on all this would be appreciated.
Anyone who thinks I am wallowing in "woe is me", or has got round these problems, please give me some smart arse comments for them, that I can use, or suggest something to "buck myself up", or something so I don't feel crap when dealing with these people.

welcome to the world of working mums!

You see Charlene that is why I dare not move a foot from the job that I am in even though I find it dull and it is really a dead end.

Sorry that is not much help. I do sympathise and hope that somebody helpful can come on here and give you some advice.

Thanks, but Bozza, according to these agencies "all employers" (!!) want people who are working now. So you'd be fine!!

charlene, I know you need a job quickly but why not look on your local council website for jobs within the council? Of all people, local govt. HAVE to stick to the legalities - they will not discriminate. In interview they won't even ask you one thing about your home circumstances, because their procedures don't allow it.

Look for equal opportunities employers or those with investors in people logos - they SHOULD be clear of any of the crap you've experienced.

I really sympathise with you, I know what you mean about sitting opposite a girl in a suit who you know has no nightmare childcare responsibilities to arrange, and I know how bitter it can make you feel to do the hard work of bringing up kids only to have it presented as if you have done 'nothing'.....

I really think the key is what jobs you are going for....

I've been checking the council jobs every week, but nothing available yet. I have to go for office work - as I definitely don't have enough experience of anything else, and I need a reasonable wage. Can't understand why these employers are so picky - surely they can see that mothers make good workers because we have kids to feed etc.

Charlene,
I totally sympathise with you!!!!!!!
I've been looking for a job since ds was 8 months thinking that I'll be able to start when he's 1 (he's 16 months now) but like you, I've been getting nowhere.
I've got a degree and postgrad qualification and there are zero positions that match these that are part time. One agency even refused me as I didn't have enough admin experience. Bullocks! I've been a maths and IT teacher for three years and did an office job for three months before I had ds where I was literally begging the rest of the team to give me some photocopying to do as I know that they didn't want to give me anything else so that it looked as if I was trying to step on their toes! When applying for junior jobs, they will not even consider me because of my qualifications.

I've also registered with loads of agencies and the rates are appalling as it will barely cover childcare!
I'm registering with another one next week having sent them my cv about a pt accounts job. I really need to work now just to meet people really as I find the monotony of being an sahm just unbearable!.
Wish you all the luck in the world. do let us know how it goes.

Thanks mummy, got agency interviews today - one nice, one horrid woman.
Gotta go and transform myself into something out of Dynasty (power suit), instead of someone in jogging trousers with mad hair and children hanging off me!!

Had the interviews. One was nice as I said and said she'd try her best for me. The other one hadn't read my CV, didn't even look at me whilst she was talking and told me to ring up every day to "see if they've got anything". Was in that one for about 5 mins. She just kept going on about my last job and asking why I'd not worked for so long. Don't think I'll be hearing from her somehow. She was so offhand it was untrue.
Total jobs I've applied for so far = 18. Half of the agencies aren't even replying.
DP says he can get me a job where he works, but it's crap money, very long hours (42 1/2), temporary and they'd want me next Monday. Can't just throw the kids into nursery and go to work. So he's p'd off now cos I said I couldn't do it. He thinks I should just take it. It wouldn't even cover childcare. It would be a disaster. If they reduce the hours to a normal 37, I'd still be spending more money than earning - it's pointless. I wouldn't even break even working the full hours and the nursery isn't open long enough at night!

I've recently gone through the CV/interview process, and I was happy to admit to having children (in order to explain my 9 year gap in history), but there was no way I was admitting to having 5. I am a teacher, so happily discussed my secondary aged children as being an asset, but I was very economical with the truth with regards to having more than that. Nobody asked me direct questions.

It's best not to mention children at all, unless you feel you have to. They are not an asset to a job, in general - neutral at best. If you put yourself in an employer's shoes, you may think that a young woman without children is going to have some at some point, someone with one is going to have another, youngish children are going to get sick...you can't really win.

Be honest (obviously), but don't reveal what you don't have to.

Science, I helped run a playgroup and was on the committee etc. for 2 years. EVERYONE has ignored the things I did as it wasn't paid. They are all bleating on about a basic temp job I had just before I gave birth to ds, which I did out of desperation to pay the bills and no one else would employ me.
I have been pigeonholed by the agencies into "that was my job, we will only look at you as doing that". Anything since doesn't count as it isn't salaried.
I have loads of "transferable skills" from having kids, just need to convince employers.

I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences by the sound of it.

I recently returned to work after 2 years as a SAHM. I took redudancy while on mat leave and we then moved house due to DH's work, so this was my first opportunity to return to work.

I was totally upfront on all my applications.

I had an interview for almost all the jobs I applied for, so assume that having DS was not perceived as a problem by them.

One asked me in a roundabout way how I would handle it if DS was ill..I was non-committal, but when they then offered me the job, I turned it down because this, and other things, had demonstrated that the firm had a culture that would not suit me.

I was then offered another job somewhere else and the culture and attitude of the firm is open and flexible. It was 20 hours a week, and the f/t satff only do 35. Lots of the oterh satff are parents, e.g. my boss comes in later than the rest so he can drop his son at school, and two otehr colleagues finish at 4.30 on the dot so they can do nursery pickups. This is totally accepted.

Just wanted to say - don;t give up hope! There are companies out there who are family friendly. Wish you luck on your search, you will find something, but don;t compromise. Trust your instincts, if it doesn;t feel right, it won;t be.

Good Luck!

I am off work today as DS has chicken pox and despite only being there 3 months, they have been fine about it.

Thanks frayed, you have cheered me up a bit.
Have applied for every feasible job in town now, and am waiting for people to ring back after getting fobbed off all morning. Have got my interview on Friday, and job sounds OK, but pay doesn't cover childcare, and there's loads of other people for it.

Charlene,

I think there are different format CVs you can use. You don't have to go with the conventional Jobs-Academic-Other. If voluntary work has been a major factor for your unique set of skills, you don't have to relegate it to the bottom of your CV.

Your CV is how you market yourself - make it work for you, and don't feel that you need to conform to some convention.

Employers do like on-the-job experience, including temporary work. If you can find a temp position, then feel encouraged - you are just one step away from a permanent job.

I've returned to work this year after 9 years out. I started with a bit of supply work, and then a longer term supply job. When I updated my CV in February, my supply agency sent it out and got about 100 notes of interest. Each supply job after that asked me to stay. I bided my time (all of about 2 weeks) and landed a job in a grammar school.

I used voluntary work on my initial CV - I was heavily involve in church work for all of my time off, with increasing responsibilty over the years. I used my vicar as a refereee. Whatever you do, you have to think of the skills you developed and market them for the new job.

I totally sympathise. I used to work in HR in the public sector, i spent my (pre dd) days trying to whip managers into shape on this kind of thing, sat on interview panels and championed candidates who had been sahm's, helped employees get hours re-negotiated etc.

When I got pg, I was confident I was in the best place to be treated right.

However ...

When I was pg I was denied promotion because I was pg. The HR manager in question told me outright to my face that was the reason, with a witness in the room. I complained to my HR manager who checked it out, the hrm who interviewed me denied it (and her witness backed her up) and I was told I was mistaken.

When i went back to work after having dd I came under huge pressure to work extra hours, was told having time off when dd was ill was 'not good enough'. at 6pm one night I had to go and collect dd from nursery (she had been there since 8am) my boss told me to get her and bring her into the office and carry on working, i could go on and on. Fortunately we could afford for me to give up work and I only lasted 6 months.

Sadly, working in the public sector is no guarantee you'll be treated right.

IME company policy is irrelevant, your direct manager has to have children and/or be understanding about your caring responsibilities, otherwise life will be difficult. If they ask questions like that you probably don't want to work for them anyway.

Understanding manager are out there, but are few and far between.

For writing your CV, you might wat to check out \link{http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0273707302/qid=1148998669/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/203-1565218-4477531\Pitch Youself} Its approach is different from the traditional chronological listing of your time. You could say list on eof your competancies as adaptability, and point to your various temp jobs as evidence.

I know you don't want to work full time edeally, but would you consider doing it for say a few months -- just long enough to use it as current experience so you could go get a job you'd rather have? Or maybe you could find a job share?

Charlene, what sort of business did you look at setting up? Try looking for a grant - you might have a local business enterprise scheme that could help you.

Charlene,

you could well be describing me with your posts! What are you willing to do? Are you ready just to accept anything? Like you, I found that the problem with getting an agency job is that the wages barely cover childcare costs and you may actually be spending more than what you earn that way. You should be eligible for tax credits though as long as you work 16+ hours.

Not sure whether you think this is appropriate and feel free to ignore me, I won't be offended. Have you thought about retraining or doing a vocational course at college to improve your chances of employment? It will depend on what you want to do of course. You may get it free if you are claiming income based JSA but the policy varies for different colleges.

The CV thing, make it skills based rather than chronological, that's what I've been told. There are risks of course that employers will think that you're deliberately trying to hide something but it seems as if we can't win either way!!!

Good luck and don't give up!

Mummy, I am looking at all "office jobs". My CV's not a problem, the employers won't even read it once they hear I'm not working. Like I said earlier, main reason is "not enough recent experience". This is for jobs like filing and answering the phone. Maybe posting a letter occasionally.... It is SO infuriating. I can do these jobs in my sleep.
Can't do temp work as I can't take a place at nursery only to have to take kids out 3 mths later then lose any chance of getting it back if I got another job. Also, they would give me weeks notice in that situation, but I'd have to pay for a mths nursery fees - which I can't afford. As one agency pointed out, if I go temp to perm, then the minute I have time off for the kids, they will get rid of me anyway as there are plenty of temps without kids and who have "recent experience".
I will supposedly get tax credits, but I don't trust them to pay on time tbh, so I need to earn enough to cover fees, then "live off" the credits when they turn up.
I can't go to college, as again, I'd need to pay for childcare, I'm not eligible for help with that and I have no transport to get there - it's too far from where I live. I wouldn't get any financial help to study - already thought of that!! I have covered my CV with relevant skills etc, and said I'm willing to learn on the job etc. for things I haven't done before.
I need a permanent job very soon, or we're facing serious financial problems.
All these applications are taking so long. Then they turn round and say, yes we can take our time, but we expect you to drop everything and start work as soon as we offer anything - as today with dp's work. Apparently they were "desperate" for someone and needed them to start on Monday. As I "didn't want it", they'll now get someone through an agency - which could take them 3 weeks. Where's the logic in that, as I could have done it if that were the case? (money/hrs etc aside). His argument was that it could have led to something permanent elsewhere in the company. My argument was yes, and it might not, I didn't want the risk. DP says he won't bother asking again. He thinks that I should have said yes, but he doesn't understand I cannot just shove the kids in a nursery for 50 hrs a week without them building up time there first - which I can't do without being offered a job! I refused to do it, so now I'm the baddie, and he thinks no one will offer me a job anyway, so I've burnt my bridges etc. I wasn't guaranteed to get it anyway!! It was a "possibility" if there was "no one better".
Really doing a lot for my confidence is this...

Is having an au pair an option for you?

I found it to be a good option when I was doing supply work. I only needed to work one day a week to cover costs.

No, definitely not!!

Why can't you put your kids in nursery for 50 hours per week?

Uwila, you read me wrong, I WILL have to put the kids in for 50 hrs a week. What I was ssaying was I need to let them build up time there first. I refuse to just dump them there one Monday morning and go off to work after 5 minutes, and not be able to come back until 9 or 10 hrs later. I have never left my kids with anyone for more than a couple of hours - and that was family!! I am leaving them with sil on friday whilst I go to my interview. DD will probably scream the place down when I go. DS is fine - it's not him I'm particularly worried about.
I have no choice financially BUT to work full time. Job share isn't enough hours. I do realise that I don't have to do it forever - my problem is getting a job in the first place, as I've been out of paid work for 4 years.