Gross Misconduct, desperate for advice.

[ditavonteesed]

Right I have told this story on here a few times over the last week but I am going out of my mind so please bear with me.
Dh got a call from a branch of his company to say that he could do something with regard to a customer that he actually couldnt (in procedure), the branch wre ot very happy and said they were going to phone one of the managers, not dh's manager. Dh walked into this managers office to warn her of the coming phone call but the manager was already on the phone, he made a hand gesture and said quietly they are talking bollocks, the manager then shouted at dh 'dont you swear at me'. Dh apologised in a whisper and left, hee went back when he saw this manager was free and said 'I am sorry you thought I was swearing at you, I wasnt and I am really sorry if you thought that or I upset you'.

At this point the manager started shoouting at dh about lying and having a bad attitude and various other personal attacks, dh said that the manager was a bully and he wasnt going to take that.
He then went into his own managers office to tell him what was happening and the 1st manager followed him and continued to shout at him, I believe dh was shouting back, she ignored him, was rude to him and was very personal, she turned away from dh when he was speaking and spoke to his manageer over his head, dh then stepped inbetween the managers and the 1st manager said to dhs manager 'see that he is turning his back on his manager he isnt allowed to do that'.

Dh said he did not get any closer to the 1 st manager but stepped into her line of site.
She has put 2 complaints in about dh, one for swearing at her, and a second claim of Gross Misconduct saying that dh was threatening, intimdating and abusive.

This manager has put in complaints against at least one member of staff in the past who is still there.
She has also put in various informal complaints to dhs manager about most of dhs team.
Dhs manager is on his side and has backed him 100% however the decisions do not lie with him.
Please tell me he isnt going to get fired.

Ok I am actually going to copy the letter.

Dear ditasdh

Invite to Disciplinary Meeting

I am writing further to the recent investigation meeting you attended and connfirm that those investgations have now been completed.

As a result of the investigation I now believe that there are issues that should be dealt with via the companies Disciplianry process and confirm that you are ow rewuired to attend a disciplinary meeting on Mon.

You are entitled to be accompanied.

The reason is to discuss the allegation that you acted innapropriatly towards a fellow collegae in relation to an incident that occured insert date.

in order for you to fully prepare for the metting please find enclose a cope of all statemtns, in addition and for your information please find enclosed a copy of the companys disciplinary procedure.

Depending upon the facts established at the metting, the outcome could mean that disciplinary action will be taken against you. Howver, a decision on this will not be made until you ahve had a full opportunity to put forward your version of events and the interview has concluded.
yours s.

obviously I have missed out names and dates.

From this I am assuming he will have action taken ie a warning, but there is no mention of gross misconduct or dismisal. please let me know what you think.

dita i hope you don't spend the whole weekend thinking about this and are able to put it to the back of your mind and not keep worrying.

I'm rooting for you and your dh.

All the best x

thanks squeak I am trying but it just feels so huge and scary. [

From that letter they are not considering the offence as gross misconduct and are not contemplating dismissing him. It will probably be a warning, but not dismissal.

flowery thank you so much

Agree with flowery (as always)

Thanks so much it is so hard to takke a logical realistic view of these thing when you are in the middle.

should he try and seek advice before the meeting or wait and see what the outcome is and deal with it then? obviosuly at this point we are considering a warning cracking open the champers style news.

also just spotted quite how bad my typing is and would like to conrgatualte everyone for making any sense of it at all

Dita, I agree with Flowery, that doesn't sound at all like a letter lining up a gross misconduct dismissal. By the way, when did he start working there?

I think he has been there 3 years but only a year in his current job, he ws under redundancy notice for his last job and they found him this job internally.

That's very good news: less than a year and his rights would be a lot less. It doesn't matter about different roles as long as its the same employer or one connected to it. If he can, he should try to get some advice (eg CAB) before the meeting but he should be careful about delaying it too long. They have been a bit quick though in arranging it for Monday - doesn't allow a lot of time to sort out a companion for the meeting.

I am wondering if I can find where the local CAB office is if we cant go together in his lunch hour. he said he will ask his colleague to go with him, I have out my foot down and said he must.

the first job was a subsidery that was sold of but there has been no change in who pays his wages.

You might need to do a bit of Googling. The other thing you could do is ring round one or two solicitors firms. Ones with employment specialists, not small high street firms. You should find that even if your DH isn't actually going to give them any work, some of them will happily chat for a few minutes and give you some pointers. We do that, we don't have a half hour free scheme or anything and we really normally act for employers but if someone needs a bit of a steer urgently, we'll help out.

the plan is at the moment to see what happens and deal with it afterwards if anything is not as expected (ie they sack him) is this a good idea, can these issues be dealt with retrospectively if needed? I am going to make a document with all the procedure stuff on tom so it is there if needed, dh has the procedures and if any indication is given they they intend to dismiss him on Mon, ie written notice then he will ask for the hearing to be postpones while he fnds representation.

I'd try ACAS for some advice - their helpline is available on a saturday morning.

Monday-Friday, 8am-8pm and Saturday, 9am-1pm: 08457 47 47 47.

(from the ACAS website)

will get dh to call in the morning.

still cant really believe all this is happening, I have gone back to feeling a bit numb and can only apologise for the slight hysteria earlier, it was when dh came home really upset, tbh I can deal with anything as long as every one is ok (too much family history of supporting mh issues)

am off too bed, willl try and come at all this with a clear head in the morning just wanted to say thanks again for all the advice and reassurance.

I was going to suggest ACAS as well.
Also, do you have a document that outlines what the specific grievances are? Or does DH have a clear idea from the previous meeting?

I think it's worth taking the time to go through what the issues are so he can present his point of view on Monday.

Pleased to hear that others also don't think it sounds like he's going to be dismissed. I have my fingers crossed for you. I have some idea of that awful sick feeling.

No document outlining the specific grievanaces, he knows that there are 2 and believes it is that he swore at a colleague, which while he didnt swear at her he accepts, the other he thinks is that he was aggressive or intimidating to her, looking at the letter this has been changed to behaving inappropriatly. What I dont think he has focused on enough is that he was trying to leave the argument but she wouldnt let him, in one of thestatements cant remember which one it says that he said I cant be dealing with this or something like that, but I know him and I know what he meant was I dont want to argue please let me leave, he tried several times to end the argument and was told dont you walk away from me and phrases like that.
I do believe he was angry, but I also believe he was sticking up for himself and she was in fact the one that was being intimidating, in fat I thikn the fact that she has placed these complaints and tried to get him fred proves that to some exent.

He needs to defend himself, and tell them on Monday that he was trying to walk away and she wouldn't let him and was following him. He needs to make it clear that he went to his manager's office because he felt intimidated by the other manager's behaviour, and wanted a witness to it as he knew it was getting out of hand. I honestly don't think he will get fired for it, but I do think once it's been dealt with he should raise a grievance about the other manager (I'd personally do this once the meeting on Monday is out of the way, but at the meeting I'd point out that I felt intimidated by her, it won't be a complete shock to them when he raises the grievance). Even if it just means he doesn't have to have any interaction with her again, it's worth doing as she sounds horrible.

I'm not in HR by the way, but have been a manager and dealt with disciplinaries in previous jobs.

I just want to tell you this Dita. I have worked for my company for 11 years now and as I said before, it's very strict. This means I am quite familiar with disciplinary procedures. In my experience, I have NEVER known anyone to be dismissed without being suspended first. Most companies will give warnings before they actually dismiss someone. Someone got suspended this past week and everyone thought he was for the chop but he was given a final written warning because he had a clean record so far.

I used to work in HR before I had children a couple of years ago. I am pretty sure that if a dis hearing is being held under gross misconduct it has to say so in the letter. Also, if any sort of warning is given tomorrow he will have to be given the opportunity to appeal afterwards if he feels it was unfair (although Ime appeals are rarely upheld) . My advice is for him to make sure he puts his point across clearly and calmly (so it can be recorded in the minutes) and apologise (I assume as there was a witness he admits what happened and doesn't dispute the facts.)

thanks again everyone for the wonderful advice and reassurances, we have actually manged to forget about it and have quite a nice weekend, starting to get worried about it again now, I know dh will handle it well, I cant imagaine what she must have been saying to him to make him retaliate because he is one of the calmest people I have ever met. he is set up with what he has to do, ie remain calm and confirm what it already says in his statement, he is also aware a bit more of procedures so will be pulling them up on it if anything bad does happen, he is expecting to get a warning and we are seeing that as the best outcome at the moment.

We really just want this to be over. I have told dh how proud I am of him, he has been going into work for a week and a half with this haging over his head and smiled and got on with his job, apparently the women who put the complaint in was even joking with him on fri (which personally I think is disgusting).