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Original poster

Gross Misconduct, desperate for advice.

88 replies

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 16:37

Right I have told this story on here a few times over the last week but I am going out of my mind so please bear with me.
Dh got a call from a branch of his company to say that he could do something with regard to a customer that he actually couldnt (in procedure), the branch wre ot very happy and said they were going to phone one of the managers, not dh's manager. Dh walked into this managers office to warn her of the coming phone call but the manager was already on the phone, he made a hand gesture and said quietly they are talking bollocks, the manager then shouted at dh 'dont you swear at me'. Dh apologised in a whisper and left, hee went back when he saw this manager was free and said 'I am sorry you thought I was swearing at you, I wasnt and I am really sorry if you thought that or I upset you'.

At this point the manager started shoouting at dh about lying and having a bad attitude and various other personal attacks, dh said that the manager was a bully and he wasnt going to take that.
He then went into his own managers office to tell him what was happening and the 1st manager followed him and continued to shout at him, I believe dh was shouting back, she ignored him, was rude to him and was very personal, she turned away from dh when he was speaking and spoke to his manageer over his head, dh then stepped inbetween the managers and the 1st manager said to dhs manager 'see that he is turning his back on his manager he isnt allowed to do that'.

Dh said he did not get any closer to the 1 st manager but stepped into her line of site.
She has put 2 complaints in about dh, one for swearing at her, and a second claim of Gross Misconduct saying that dh was threatening, intimdating and abusive.

This manager has put in complaints against at least one member of staff in the past who is still there.
She has also put in various informal complaints to dhs manager about most of dhs team.
Dhs manager is on his side and has backed him 100% however the decisions do not lie with him.
Please tell me he isnt going to get fired.

OP posts:

Fairylea · 19/10/2012 18:24

Phone ACAS .. they were very helpful when dh was bullied out of work. If you Google them you can get the number for Monday.

Why wouldn't he get another job? If his cv
Isn't very positive he needs to look at retraining or voluntary work part time to build some references while you use benefits for the meantime .. he should be entitled to jsa if he can argue it was unfair.

Don't panic.

Numberlock · 19/10/2012 18:28

My advice is to call in sick on Monday and get some legal advice. You will feel much better when you know what the legal position is. His company could be looking to get rid of people and trying to avoid redundancy payments so just using this incident as an excuse.

In any case, I would advise him not to attend that meeting before he's got some professional advice.

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 18:38

Ok have managed to read the procedures. I want to quote a paragraph so someone else can confirm to me that this means they are not going to fire him.

Section on disciplinary hearing which it is stated in the letter is what dh is being called to.

'In the event the employee is facing dismissal either as a consequence of previous disciplinary sanctios or for an alleged act of gross misconduct, the Company will notify them of this fact in writing prior to the hearing.'

Now prior can not mean on Monday can it, he has had no notifictaion of this.

OP posts:

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 18:44

please someone.

OP posts:

Numberlock · 19/10/2012 18:49

My advice still stands. It doesn't sound like you can rely on the company to follow the grievance procedure and you're second guessing now.

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 18:50

cant make this go on for any longer, am suffering with really bad anxiouty and likely to end up making myself really ill.

OP posts:

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 18:52

I think they are quite good, they said in the letter to look through the procedures and it is in writing, even if it is gross misconduct he shpould have written notice if they intend to fire him. I am also trying to make myself feel better so I may have a hope in hell of actually getting through this weekend.

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noseymcposey · 19/10/2012 19:05

Dita, I think that does sound promising based on what you have quoted but it is difficult to tell for sure without reading the whole procedures. One thing I would say, is that if they do tell him this in writing on Monday, then would that be grounds for getting the hearing postponed?

noseymcposey · 19/10/2012 19:06

(I have no HR experience or anything by the way so please dont put too much store by my personal opinion)

noseymcposey · 19/10/2012 19:06

Also how do you know that his manager has said he was being intimidating?

MainlyMaynie · 19/10/2012 19:10

To me it definitely sounds like if he was facing dismissal they would have notified him of it. So, either they are not looking at dismissal or they aren't following their own procedures. If they don't follow procedures he would have a good case for unfair dismissal. But it sounds more likely that they aren't considering dismissal, since they have directed him to the policies.

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 19:19

nosey I have read his managers statement (well skimmed it). mainly thanks that makes me feel better, if they werent following their own pricedures they wouldnt have insisted he read them would they? So do you think it is likely he is going to get a warning? His manager told him the conplaint was gross misconduct but HR have never used that term. feeling a little better. Just is so alarmikng how quickly things turn from lovely to worried about everything.

OP posts:

VerySmallSqueak · 19/10/2012 19:19

I agree Mainly that they are unlikely to take any action involving dismissal if the are not following procedure,as I don't think a Tribunal would be impressed.

I still say that I think he should have reasonable time to arrange representation and make his case,plus be allowed to know what case he is answering so he can form a defence.

If it was me,I think I would explain that I am unable to attend the hearing on Monday as I am unsure what the hearing is going to be dealing with,and have been unable to look into arranging any representation at such short notice.

That is not to say anyone else should do what I would do though!

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 19:21

can I just ask squeak and mainly are you something to do with HR or advice or employment law (just so I can tell dh and make him feel better not so I can quote you or anything).

OP posts:

VerySmallSqueak · 19/10/2012 19:23

I would be very surprised if he were sacked,judging by what you've said dita.

VerySmallSqueak · 19/10/2012 19:25

dita I am nothing to do with employment law,HR,or advice, I'm afraid.( apart from the receiving end of not very nice treatment at work in the past)

MainlyMaynie · 19/10/2012 19:31

No, I'm not. I have experience as a senior manager and have done some basic training on disciplinaries, so I'm only speaking from that perspective.

MainlyMaynie · 19/10/2012 19:34

I think squeak is giving good advice about delaying the meeting on Monday. Personally I wouldn't do that and would bring up the lack of procedure at the meeting or afterwards if there was a problem as I'm impatient, but I think unions/solicitors would suggest delaying.

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 19:37

thats good enough for me, thank you so much. I am so scared and dh is so sad and we are both so anxious and life has gone from really lovely to horrid in the last couple of weeks, I think people should really think about the affect these things have on people. All I want to know is that he is going to be dismissed.
In his job a few years ago they set him up for dismissal (to get out of redundancies) and he had to leave and we didnt have the strength to fight and we had such a horrible year and I cant bear to think about going through that again.

OP posts:

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 19:40

I can see where you are coming from re delaying but we jst want to get it over and done with tbh, if anything really bad happens there lack of notice etc will count in dh's favour I woulld think at a hearing, because if anything bad happens there certainly will be a hearing this time.

I think dh should take a colleague in with him but I dont think he wnats anyone to know what is happening. Maybe I should go with him, would that be allowed do you think?

OP posts:

stumpymosha · 19/10/2012 19:54

If this manager has a history of making complaints about staff members, her word isn't going to hold much is it?
Turning one's back on a manager is not gross misconduct. It sounds like the manager was equally, if not more threatening, intimidating and abusive. Being a manager does not deem a person exempt from the rules. Therefore, dh needs to point out that if he is sacked for such behaviour, the manager should be sacked too. He also needs to point out that if he is sacked, he will appeal and put in a grievance against the manager, calling for her job as well. You can't have one rule for one person and another rule for someone else.
My workplace is very strict, people have been sacked for chewing gum. Last year, I was under a lot of pressure and lost it with my manager. The word bollocks was mild compared to some of the things I said to her. I have seen other people lose it with managers, standing up for themselves just as dh did. We are all still there because sticking up for oneself is not gross misconduct.

VerySmallSqueak · 19/10/2012 20:01

I don't know dita.It's usual for a union rep,work colleague or solicitor even to accompany a worker.But I really don't know if it's restricted in any way.

I can understand you wanting to get it all over. In that case I can't see why you shouldn't do as Mainly suggests.Any lack of procedure can be brought up later if needed - it sounds like you don't want to make a battle out of this if you can help it,and that's fair enough. Sometimes for sanity you can't fight all the way over every little irregularity.And sometimes you can be seen as being a more reasonable sort for not doing so.

I'm quite militant in my approach

hermioneweasley · 19/10/2012 20:08

Dicta, it doesn't sound like something you should be this concerned about. What exactly does it say in the invite letter and when was he given it. Was he given anything with it?

Original poster

ditavonteesed · 19/10/2012 20:21

dh just wants it to be over, he will just take a warning if that is what he gets and will not complain about this manager, however if things go further then we will fight it tooth and nail. he loves his job, is doing exams and doing really well and has been so happy since he started there (worked at a horrible place before).
hermion, I have calmed down a lot now, I have read through the whole thread and realise I got a bit histerical for a while there. It is very scary, he was given the letter at 4pm today, his manager had requested the meeting to be today but HR were not available as his manger said he didnt need it hanging over him for another weekend.

At the end of the letter it says that a decision will be made after the hearing on Monday based on the discussion in the meeting and that this could be disciplinary.

He was given the staements by all concerned with the letter as welll as a copy of the procedures, which state that if dismissal is being considered he would have notice of this in writing.
Thanks again for all the support yoou cant begin to imagine how much it means.

OP posts:

hermioneweasley · 19/10/2012 20:41

It doesn't sound like a disciplinary, it sounds like a further investigatory meeting with a view to taking a decision on whether disciplinary action is appropriate.

Hope it goes well and he gets it sorted. Glad to hear you're feeling better about it. PM me if you need advice next week.

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