custy under fire - your professional help would be very much appreciated

[Tortington]

the story is far too long and laborious suffice to say it involves a london borough council and the company i work for supposedly working toether to help set up a residents association. the person designated fromt he council is a housing officer and has no experience - i have been brought in half way through the process and have been to two meetings ( those of you who read may remember me asking your advice over whether i was being paranoid at minuteds of said meeting being unfair) anyway, i was asked to comment on the governance document proposed for the association and found that it was a fucking shower of shite. so i went through point by poitn and made suggestions - explaining whilst i went that this was not a document tying statuatory agencies into working with ressies assoc but that it was the GOVERNANCE doc.

anyway fuckwit fella from council said this to an area manager who is a spineless shit

......is custy or custycompany wish to come up with a model which would have involved the same amount of work as producing the e-mail below, then she is free herself to put forward and produce one. the comments below verge on nit picking ( does it really matter if it is a management or other committee?) .....it does actually.. A lot of what custy has written is legalesque pedantry
this may not have been your intention or custycompany intention but having experienced custys approach in meetings and now this i have to question whether her continuin involvement is going to be productive in this project. We need everyone signed up to the process

i think its in our interest to explicitly sign up to this initiative as a committment to joint working. it may not tie in with "model" constitutions but it is the reallity ont he ground.

thats it

right any way i can have the bastard for calling me a nit picking pedant and suggesting i get chucked off the project?

OK... I'll try

Do you want constructive comments or someone to agree with you that they are idiots (I'd hate to do the first and be under fire from the famous custy response...)

My initial gut feeling, though, is that neither of you have clarified what you think you are there to achieve from you being part of this relationship and you are assuming different things.

Would love to help, but your post made my head hurt! I don't think I'm up to giving advice on something that's too complicated for me!
I'm sure he's a grade A tosser though.

any comments welcome.

My stock standard response to this kind of 'practical' or 'commercial' approach is to tell them that this is all very well when everything is going swimmingly. However, in business life things often don't go swimmingly and then it is important to have documentation which is robust and best in class!

I would stress that you are not going about to frustrate teh process but rather to refine it so that it is clear and unambiguous not just to those currently close to the project but to those who will have to interpret this stuff once it has been passed on to operational people.

I would say to manager that if they are looking for a bodge merchant then you are not that person. However if they want a professional with a pragmatic but risk aware approach then you are their person!

HTH - but not sure if it will. He sounds like he feels threatened by your experience and men never like to be in that position do they

i found the name calling unneccesary, i am very upset by it and want to take it further but dont know how - as its a different organisation

I think where he says 'we need everyone signed up to the process' read 'I want everyone to agree with me'

who asked you to comment on the document in the first place?

OK - so the bloke from the council said this to an area manager? Just out of curiosity who is the area manager in all this? Is he (Area Manager) from your company? Was this in an email?

I'm not sure what you can really do about it to be honest, but I think if it was me and this was email correspondance I would reply to him directly following Soapbox's v. eloquent and articulate response and cc it to your manager and his manager.

If not in an email I think I would be tempted to send him one noting that you have heard that he has concerns about your approach to this project and that you would be happy to discuss them with him in person etc and also include Soapbox's stuff there, also cc'ing it to relevant management.

I work for local government (used to be in the housing dept too) so know what calibre of employee you're likely to be dealing with. He sounds a right prat.

I have just had similarish argument with someone from another organisation

basically you have pissed them off

depends whether you want to bend a bit (by apologising if they thought it was legalese pedantry, in fact you think Idea no 24 was excellent, but it is essential they recieve an objective view on the process)?

is what you wrote copied directly from an email? If so, I don't think you could lodge a complaint with his employer.

You could (and possibly should), however, talk to mr council fuckwit and tell him how his comments made you feel and ask what he was hoping to achieve by going over your head (is area manager your line manager?). The phrase 'this could be construed as undermining me' normally goes down well in hierarchical organisations like local authorities. However, doing this in bad temper will merely serve to make you cross and him defensive.

Do you want out of this project, or do you want to continue working on it and turn this into a more positive relationship?

If the former, well force him to justify himself. If the latter, I assume you have no influence about him being the main contact? In which case, I'm afraid it's down to you to be the professional adult (not the rebellious teenager he is making you feel like), in order to force him to act the same back to you. Then you need to sit down one-to-one and work out why you are bringing different points of view to this project and if this is a positive thing or not.

it was an e -mail - yes direct quotes there. the manager is one of a hundred in my company, he attends the meetings - he isn't however my manager.

i have been summoned to a meeting with 2 directors and said manager.

thing is i have a partic area of knowledge. i am 100% on it i am as shit hot up my own arse as you can be. and i am not an arrogant person in real life anyway! this person has no knowledge and is making a reall fuck up of it big time - only he is more senior and keeping his organisation happy is more important politically to my organisation that telling him that hes a fuck wit fucking things up.

if they wanted a yes person they shouldnt have sent me in the first place i think those who know me - at least know that.

am in a no win situation if i had kept my gob shut i would have been complicit and therefore to blame when things go bollocks as they are bound to in a years time when the ressies assoc are confident enough to go for funding to outside agengies who will look at their governance doc and think they are a shower of shite.

open my mouth and i threaten the strategic position of the companies business plan in this borough of london.

i shit you not - only i get in these positions

and worse of all i hold no authority to be able to come off with "dont be childish" retort

directors and managers of your organisation? (as opposed to his?)

OK, do you want to work on this project any more?

That will determine how you approach that meeting... either:
a) he's undermining me and asking me to do bodge job, i am concerned about his inexperience and how it could reflect upon our company's reputation
or
b) unfortunately i think this is one of those miscommunications that can arise through email, we have a meeting scheduled next monday to discuss how to address the project together in a more positive manner

both great responses thanks

yes directors from my company

well the obvious solution is to ask a funding agency for advice on the governance doc, if you know you're right and need objective but not confrontational back up

if he's local authority i am amazed that he can ok a governance doc the council is signing up to without an opinion from his legal dept

well, his email is out of order and would wind me right up, but i have to ask, is there any way that you did pick things out as faults when they were in fact just another way of doing things on some points? If so, it may have made him see red before he read the other points - doesn't excuse the name calling but might explain it.

anyway if there is any way that some of what you said came over as too strong, then say so in the meeting (emphasising the "some" ) and say what you really think about why this is important - that way it doesn't look like you're both just being stubborn. in fact even if you stand by every word I think I'd go for a tactic along those lines.

alternatively go for some sarcy comments about the amount of work involved for him in reading the email.

Ok, what you do is to write down your response ready to hand to them.

You begin by saying that you were asked to comment on the document, which is exactly what you did do. Constructive criticism is part of the job and if you did not point out what you thought were errors in the document, then you would not be doing your job properly.

You feel that personal insults are beneath the company and achieve nothing, therefore you decline to comment on any personal insult except to say that further comments will be reported to the relevant authority.

Furthermore, if they wanted a biased view on the document, as (the bastard) seemed to imply, they should have asked the company secretary to comment on it or an employee who similarly does not have a clue. But as someone who has (here state your experience on the matter) I feel that I am suitably qualified to give a constructive opinion on the matter.

If the team do not want my further involvement in this matter, then I suggest they give their reasons in full in writing to me.

Are you not part of a Union Custy?

You have to rise above this Custy and not dive to the depths of the little shit.

If you've been summoned to a meeting, go prepared. Sit and listen to them - they obviously have you down as opinionated and a threat to them, so you must stay calm.

If you really feel you acted with integrity and for the greater good of the project, then NO apologies, no backing down.

You obv know your stuff so sit down and write out a measured argument as to why you changed the document. Persoanlly I would arrive with a copy of the doc and highlight all changes you made and make notes beside each point to which you can refer. At all times steer away from any personal argument and back up every point with a reference to how this will:-

1)improve the chances of the borough/customer liaison
2) improve the service being provided.

Good luck.

my dh is a community worker and is qualified to comment and wonderfully went through document this evening without my comment and listed where he thought it failed - he picked up more than i.

thats by the by i suppose. thanks all, i am going to spend tomorrow going through the document and writing as suggested a sound reason for the changes.

i will take rhubies and philipats advice when going into meeting on the 25th. like the bit about "can i have full reasons in writing why i should be removed from project." don't know if i have the balls.

i want to say "if i have done anything wrong then i should go through a formal process"

if i haven't then a solution to thebenefit of the residents needs to be found

my dh has helped me with a solution agreeable to all.

its not even a council governance doc. its the governance doc of a voluntary group.

thanks - you have all helped me think more constructively and i will endevour to create something vaguely professional.

have decided that i will travel the 68 miles to london to meet with him.

will arrange meeting tomorrow.

bullies dont like being challenged i find

sorry coming to this a bit late
YES to seeing him face to face
no substitute for that ime
and YES you have the balls
I have rarely come across anyone with more balls

Disingenous re-assurances that: "of course you want to work in partnership because you want the best job achieved - v sorry if they have inferred some unintended criticism from you, you merely wanted to be conscientious, and with the council's best inteests at heart for the future, you do stand by the comments you made. Would it help if you took them through it again?"

Well done for tackling this (and him) head on. Let us know how it goes!

Blu's idea sounds v good. I know this scenario Custy, where you (one, I mean, not you specifically) are asked to say 'yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir' about something you think is a crock and THEN, later on, get asked 'but hey, you didn't challenge it at the time, YOU signed it and said it was fine!" - it's a no win situation. Except that you don't work for this guy do you? I know your organisation have a relationship with him though and want to keep him happy so I think:
Force him to be specific. If he disagrees with something you wrote make him tell you explicitly why
Be calm and professional - let him get wound into a frenzy but don't stoop to it yourself
Agree, meet him, it's easy to bully by email, harder in person
Make sure you take someone else and document the meeting thoroughly
Totally agree that 'everyone signed up' is shorthand for 'everyone agreeing with me' - fuckwit.
Go for it Custy, don't let him win! You won't go far wrong if you stay calm, professional, specific. And remember, you DO know your stuff, he's threatened imo too.

Good luck mate! Don't lose your temper, act cool and professional at all times, rise above them. They'll try and provoke a reaction from you, but try to let it wash over you. You are there on business and that's how you will treat it. If they start making personal comments ask them to kindly refrain from turning the meeting into a gossip shop and show a little more business etiquette, otherwise you will have to make a note of each personal comment made so that you can report it to the relevant authorities.

Use as many big words as you can! Count to 10 before you say anything, this gives you time to choose your words carefully, and often a silence is much more threatening than words! It puts people on edge! Maintain eye contact though and never look down or they think they have you.

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you!