I actually think he has a point...

[Gonzo33]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1362589/Lord-Sugar-says-women-looking-job-tell-employers-plan-baby.html

I would be happy declaring whether or not I am going to have any more children and my child care arrangements. I am exceptionallly organised when it comes to these things though because I was a single parent who worked full time for many years.

What do you think?

Yes but the person I have to sleep at night with is me and my conscience - and dh if he promises not to snore!

But the point back to AS is that human nature does presume things, and if you can't ask the questions they presume.

If there were 3 candidates for the job with the same credentials, bar one's a man with 2 years experience, one's a 'more mature'' woman with 2 years experience, and one's a 'childbearing age' woman with 3 years experience and no questions can be asked, we are kidding ourselves if the employer alot of times doesn't think I'll go with one of the 2 years experience for the lack of 1 maternity/childcare is less of an issue.

But if that CBA woman with 3 years, can sell herself, plus the fact that childcare is sorted, and no future maternity, then the employer will go great we get the more experience at no greater risk (and that's the point not no risk but no greater risk) than the candidates with only 2 years!

When I was asked a roundabout question at my milkround interview with ICI 25+ years ago (was probably illegal even then - but I think they asked it to both men and women to get round it) my response was "well, both my parents worked full-time and I think I'm pretty well adjusted"

Tunred it around on them so that they couldn't ask any further questions .....

(BTW: I did end up getting a graduate job with ICI :))

receiver the experienced one of childbearing age of course could lie, or have a contraception failure, there is no guarantee for the employer. Unless you argue they should be able to sack a woman for becoming pregnant when she said she wouldn't...

Also: how can you "know" the future?

When I was at Uni, I though that I would find "the man of my dreams" by the time I was 24, have my first kid at 26 and then another one a couple of year later.......

As it was, I met the man of my dreams when I was 31, got married when I was 37 adn had ds when I was 39. I then had two miscarriages, so ds ended up being an only child :(

So what should I have told any future employer back in my 20s? And should I have crucified my career for something that never actually happened?

As it was, I happily went back to work full time when ds was 4 months onld (all the maternity leave that was avaialble back then). Dh and I shared the responsibility ( strange that !) for ds' childcare so that as far as our respective employers were concerned, there was no impact.

I didn't plan on having more than one child then after 2 years decided actually yes I would like another one. It's all very well saying you should declare your intentions but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll abide by them.

I don't think the subject of whether you have children or not should come into it at interview. Men don't often get asked, why should women?

And what if a woman wasn't entirely honest about her current situation or plans? Or plans changed. Could the employer terminate the employment?

It shouldn't be too long before maternity/paternity leave will be able to be shared between two partners as they choose. What will all the sexist employers do then? :o

Could some kind person do a clickable link to this article for everyone's benefit ?
Thanks

Clickable link

Thanks Pepsi, I've just read the article and found it was entirely what you'd expect given the Daily Mail/ Alan Sugar combo. Nevertheless it's great that you've made it easy for all to read now

Hope this backfires on A.S and employers - and women become much more assertive in making full use of their rights on this at interview. Hope everyone becomes much more aware of their rights than they seem to be from this thread, and how people talk about their experiences in R.L.

The only advice I'd take from A.S on this is concentrate on your skills and what you have to offer.
It's very likely more than you realise

I don't know what planet Alan Sugar lives on.

If it was legal to ask this question at interview i don't think many would answer truthfully.

Asking someone this question would be wasting the employers and employee's time.

I was asked this question once, I would have dearly loved a child at the time but didn't happen for another 6 years. Of course I said I wasn't planning a family at that time. You would only answer truthfully if you didn't want the job.

I don't know what he thinks anyone would gain from such a ridiculous question

Calling MNHQ !!

If you're reading this - as you might be seeing as it's a discussion of the day - how about changing the strap line on this. At present it reads
"Baby plans - inform employer ?" or something similar.

Don't encourage women to do that !

It's a recipe for disaster !

And not the Mumsnet spirit at all !

You could change it to

Alan Sugar and the Daily Mail - what century are they in ?

OR

Alan Sugar - Is he a ?

Any other suggestions ?!

Just read the article.

So I have to declare I have four children two with childminder and two with breakfast club, after school. That if any of these fall through then I may need time off to look after my children or Dh might need the time off. That sometimes my Dh will cover it and sometimes I will have to cover it.

On the plus side, I have been sterilised so will not have any more children .

That by the time my children are adults, my parents will be so elderly that I may be requiring an hour off here and there to help out with them.

I feel I will be inundated with job offers.

From April, men will be entitled to take any part of the last 6 months of maternity leave as paternity leave, so really men are just as likely to require time off when they start a family!

I don't beleive employers should have the right to ask these questions of women, and it just goes to show how sexist the idea is, considering that men are also entitled to time off.
Does Sugar think men won't want to take the opportunity to spend time with their new babies?

We are planning to start a family, and if and when we do, DH will be taking the second six months as paternity leave, then going back to work part time while I stay full time, as I earn more than him. There are a lot of families with less traditional financial roles these days, it's about time legislation reflected that trend.

Why can men only take the last 6 months? I can see that being useful if mum wants to go back to work and not put baby into childcare before he/she is 1. But what if the couple would both like to take the first 6 months off together to support each other through those really tough months?

It seems amazing to me that businesses operate successfully among a whole raft of uncertainties. Who knows how the business climate will be next year ? Who knows how taxation will change? Who knows what effects technology will have on your business? Who knows who will find a new job and move on next year? But businesses absorb these risks and usually continue to prosper.

But a woman might go off and have a baby, which will affect maybe 2 years out of the 49 years she will work and entire business plans come crashing down around their ears.

Do me a favour! This is about the desire the control women and to squeeze them out of the workplace now that hard times have come again.

Shame on you, Sugar!

If all businesses would employ an equal number of men and women of all ages, then over time they'd be seeing an equal share of new parents. Seems fair enough.

I know it's a difficult time in the job market right now, but I also think small businesses are also finding it hard. It must be difficult to recruit someone and then find they're off for a year on maternity leave.

I know employers can't ask prospective employees about any baby plans because of sex discrimation....but can't they get round this by asking this question of men AND women?

I found out from my line manager after I had been in my job for 6 months that his manager (who I had my second interview) asked him if he was sure he wanted to employ me as I was getting married in 6 months and she thought that there was a chance that I would have kids after this. He said he was gobsmacked at being asked this because he was going on who was the best candidate for the job.

I don't know why but I was shocked that this would happen and was even more shocked that this came from a woman (albeit one didn't want children - maybe thats why?)

I work for a big company so it isn't just restricted to small companies.

meant to add, if that is the attitude when it is just a possibility, can you imagine the reaction when you declared that yes, you were planning on having children!?!

I can see it from both sides. I used to work in radio. After repeated assurances that "we would never get rid of you if you got pregnant". Guess what happened. It happened to a mate of mine too but we were all on contracts so it's easier to get rid of us.
On the other hand - I have worked places where women get jobs, fulfil their probationary period and announce a month or so later that they are pregnant throwing all kinds of problems up. If I was the boss it would piss me off.
The problem is the lack of trust out there. Employees don't trust their employers to treat them well/respect their life choices while employers just assume that everyone is out to shaft them in whatever way possible - with women the obvious one is to get pregnant and leave them in the s^&t. I think companies have to start treating their employees with respect and eventually that will circumvent the need for these laws.
Alan Sugar though, should stick it where the sun don't shine.

Nothing on god's earth would have dragged my plans out of me. I Didn't inform my employers until I was 23 weeks pregnant with dc2, I knew they were cutting back and didn't want to give them any cause to think me less than 100% commited. The law is there for a good reason. There is nothing to stop you voluntering the information at interview, but they can't ask

Yeah and when there's a round of redundancies coming up do you think they'll let you know? Not a chance.