I actually think he has a point...

[Gonzo33]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1362589/Lord-Sugar-says-women-looking-job-tell-employers-plan-baby.html

I would be happy declaring whether or not I am going to have any more children and my child care arrangements. I am exceptionallly organised when it comes to these things though because I was a single parent who worked full time for many years.

What do you think?

I am seething. Why are we giving this stupid man a platform to spout this stuff? Discriminating against women on grounds of sex or maternity is illegal for good reason.

Having witnessed terrible treatment of women who have had children by employers I can say it does still happen despite the law and when I return to the workplace I will not be disclosing my marital status or my parental status. In fact I'll not be wearing my wedding ring because I've been burnt once already and don't trust all employers do the right thing.

Should men be asked to disclose their sexuality, and if they are gay, treated with suspicion in case one day they have a baby through surrogacy and wish to take time off?

He's always banging on about this! I would never admit future plans re: pregnancy as it would turn you into a ticking time bomb in most employers' eyes. I have had a boss in the past who, on finding out that a colleague was pregnant, turned to me and said 'you'd better not get pregnant too, the team is too small!'.
I had no plans to be whatsoever at the time but it shocked me that it would even cross her mind, let alone that she would say that!

In Alan Sugar's defence though (can't quite believe I just typed that) he has had a bit of bad luck in the past with women he's employed who almost immediately got pregnant (I'm thinking of two previous Apprentice candidates).
I don't think women should have to disclose any plans at interview but personally I wouldn't knowingly ttc if I'd only just started a new job.

Are most employers so stupid they need to be told "women have babies?"

Lord Sugar there are more important things you should be doing. The ridiculously expensive appointment system you installed in my GPs' surgery has not been working for months.

re ttc in a new position - that sounds well and good but sometimes life isn't like that.

Absolutely ridiculous!

I am ttc DC2 but not sure if we'll be successful or not as DS took 18 months and 2 mmc and I'm now 38yo! No way am I telling my employer that this is my plan as I am also determined not to put my career on hold in case it doesn't happen. I am currently having conversations with my line manager about my development into a more senior role and it is none of his business that I may actually prefer to be pg in the next few months!

A agree with LCarbury , in that, if he thinks he is within his rights to ask these questions, surely that would extend to other issues, such as how much a perdon drinks or if they smoke.

receiver I think that the point is employees make (often large) profits from their employees, and that they have a set of duties and responsibilities with regard to those employees. Employees are human beings, and human beings have children. You can't expect otherwise.

Even in small businesses I think the issue is not black and white. My stepmother runs a beauty therapy shop in a small town. She has three members of staff, all of them women in their 20s. One of them has been with her since she started the business five years ago and is excellent - intelligent, kind, reliable, trustworthy, popular with the customers - and has helped my stepmother build the business to a profitable position. She works the longest hours of anybody in the business and if she left lots of her clients would go with her or go elsewhere. Now she's getting married and my stepmother is moaning that she might have to cover her while she's on maternity leave, if she has a family. I think this is short-sighted in the extreme - you employ human beings, not robots, and human beings have children. And in return for all the profit and work they give you you have certain duties and responsibilities towards them - paying them above minimum wage is one, and accepting that they might have children is another. It's better for the business anyway that they keep this young woman working there in the long term than lose her altogether.

Basically I think it comes down to the question - do we want to live in a world where there are fewer female doctors (even when we really need to see them), fewer women making our laws in parliament, or prosecuting/defending both men and women as lawyers and policewomen, fewer investigative journalists or scientists or product designers who are women? We've been there before and there's no doubt that understanding of crimes like domestic violence and rape, or scientific research into pregnancy and childbirth, for instance, have been transformed by the fact that we now have a more equal workplace. I don't think we want to go backwards on that, and I don't think we want to bring our daughters up thinking that if they have children their chances in the workplace are seriously compromised. So I think it's right that employers play a part in it.

Women would be very foolish to give up their hard won right not to be asked questions or volunteer information regarding their plans for children or their childcare arrangements.

I think I have volunteered too much information in past interviews regarding my children and my arrangements for their care

I'd advise all women to cheerfully and assertively make full use of their rights in this area.
Give potential employers an inch and they'll take a mile is my experience on this one.

Alan Sugar can BOGOF ! That should suit him down to the ground !

Love Apprentice though ! When's the next series ?
How about doing a series for mothers only and see how much their wisdom, maturity and indeed juggling skills can bring to the work place ?!

I'm so angry about this I can hardly speak. There's a recession on, businesses are struggling. So of course it's women who need to suck it up and sacrifice their careers for the sake of everyone else. Which, make no mistake, you'd be doing if you told an employer at interview you planned to start a family.

How about this for an idea. Make paternal leave universal. Same rights for men and women. Then we'd see an even playing field.....

SugarPasteFrog are there any vacancies where you work?

I do think though that sometimes - not always - women do not think about the business with regards to maternity leave, and this is as much a selfish attitude as the employer who does not think of his employee as a human being.

I've known men and women come to the conclusion that doing further training at a certain point for their benefit is not the right time for the business for the business to lose them for 6 months training. But the same consideration is not always given with planning a child.

Now I accept that ttc can mean things don't go according to plan, and this is why I'm saying sometimes but I have heard conversations such as - 'oh I hadn't even worked out when the baby would be due, and that makes life really difficult.' I do think consideration has to be from all parties, and back to my previous point I do think why communication is key.

If you are sat in a meeting thinking they are spending £x on that and they are talking to me and I'm going to be telling them in 2 months I'm 4 months pregnant, it's that kind of attitude that narks of employers and gives all childbearing age women a bad name!

receive so do you think I should have put my career on ice for eight years while trying to conceive dd1 (and suffering 5 miscarriages in the meantime)?

To those who say it should apply to men as much as women I disagree. If women want equality in the work place men must have equality in the home. This is not the case socially (house husbands are looked down upon) or even legally (women have far more rights regarding child custody etc.) Yes it takes 2 to have a baby but only the woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy so women have the final say. I'm not saying men should be allowed to force women to abort, that would be mental but its worth considering what true equality regarding children would actually entail. So don't you think women should have more responsibility as they have more rights? Then again if women have to tell their employer their intentions it would be stupid if for example a gay couple didn't have to say anything if they adopted a bunch of kids or whatever.

Honestly though I don't think anyone should have to tell their employer their intentions because your intentions could change. If you do intend to have kids but you want the job you could always just lie and say you don't want kids it's not like they can force you to have an abortion if you get knocked up. Completely unenforcible

Wild horses wouldn't drag it out of me that I was 8 weeks pregnant. I would feel under no obligation to tell my employers that whatsoever.

Not all pregnancies are planned
Not all pregnancies go to term
Not everyone wants to share their obstetric history with their employer until they have no alternative

There is a reason why you don't have to tell your employer about a pregnancy until something like 25 weeks, and that is early pregnancy is risky and frankly no one's damned business but yours.

I work hard for my employer. I feel no obligation to plan my family around business needs whatsoever. If they decided it made business sense to make me redundant they'd do it in a heartbeat, as would all other employers out there.

I've already used up all my anger on this issue on a previous thread. I think weary contempt probably just about covers it now. But agree wholeheartedly with AnnieLobeseder

I cannot stand that man.

Georgimama Well said!!

It's very tricky - I speak as someone who did have fertility issues and ttc for 7 years.

But - and here's the big but, because I knew this was what I wanted to do, I took on temporary contracts, I did training at my own expense not at the employers, so I wouldn't have to either be hit with the cost if left under 2 years of repayment, nor the guilt aspect of it. I also took on work with the thought of if I fall pregnant in these 3 months, right this contract will end on x date - no problem for employer. It was something that I took with careful consideration.

When my youngest was old enough (in my dh and I view) for us to sort out childcare that suited us (bearing in mind we have no family support), I went back to work, and I then progressed my career. And took the big roles, and the progressive roles.

Besides, unless you've worked in a company for a set amount of time (I forget how long it is) before you get pregnant, you don't get full maternity pay anyway, so it's not going to break the company if you start a new job and get pregnant immediately or start while pregnant.

Planning and having children is wildly unpredictable. You can be TTC but it could take years. You could be not TTC but have an accident. It crazy that you should have to share any of this with employers.

If the job is any good, most women will come back. If the company has good, flexible family-friendly policies which make it easy for the women to do so, of course.

receive you've been lucky . I think it depends very much in which area you work.

receiver I see what you're saying but it's a separate point. Of course there are some women who take advantage of their employers (just as there are some employers who take advantage of their employees) and I would never advocate anybody taking unfair liberties of their employers.

But the issue here is about what the basic rights/responsibilities of employers/employees are in law - and in law I think the only way to a fair society is to keep the law as it is - women have the right to have children and to work.

You could also say that many many women work doubly hard, are extra-committed, and so on, once they have children - largely because they're so afraid of being regarded as slackers. So it's swings and roundabouts on that score, I think.

Is it usual to have to repay training course fees if you leave a job? I have never heard of this.

What you did was entirely your choice and you are entitled to make it. If employers had the kind of information Alan Sugar thinks they should have, every woman would end up forced into short term contract work/agency work, if she could get work at all. No thanks.

"In Alan Sugar's defence though (can't quite believe I just typed that) he has had a bit of bad luck in the past with women he's employed who almost immediately got pregnant (I'm thinking of two previous Apprentice candidates)."

Maybe its because he's such an arrogant nob they need to get away from working for him somehow!

All I know is that my MIL would not dare to ask me if I am intending to have any more children. Therefore I am hardly going to discuss it at a job interview.

I really hope he goes bankrupt.

receiver - that's very good and company-minded of you. But I don't think you were being fair on yourself. THe employers you were being so considerate to would not have done the same for you.

Do businesses usually consult with employees before making redundancy decisions, setting out new policy, taking over other businesses, merging departments, posting you to Abu Dhabi? No. They don't.