Where did the 'fact' that puberty blockers are reversible come from?

I would expect any parent who has made this decision for their child should have done a huge depth of research about the topic though. We have no idea what drug has been prescribed to which patient, whether it is for transition or precocious puberty, but it is not hard to find the Lupron issues and go from there.

Once you begin to see the issues for Lupron, the questions start to pile up about the drugs as a class. Because how much of it is the specific drug and how much of it is that break in development, if you know what I mean.

The comment from dadjoke earlier is an example of the misinformation and empty assurances that are out there in the public sphere. And how fucking dangerous spreading that misinformation is.

The reality is hard to read and confronting.

And in my opinion, the real reality should be explicit and it should be clearly stated. The biggest issue is that it seems very hard to find that information. Even the NHS is very ambiguous.

It is like searching for the negative side effects of wearing binders. There is so much content downplaying the negative effects that the reality is not seen. This is deliberate in my opinion. Because even those organisations that should be explicit and very clear are giving that dangerous misinformation and assurances that ‘the benefits outweigh the risks’.

Whereas, if you know about Lupron and move away from that term ‘puberty blocker’, the search results cannot be overwhelmed.

Yes, that's exactly what happens. Here's one child giving their story.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-children-puberty-blocking-drugs-for-the-past-four-years-i-ve-been-stuck-as-a-child-5s6tkh7z2

“They promise you that your breasts will disappear, that your voice will be deeper, that I would look and sound more like a boy. For me, that was the best thing that could have happened,” he said.

Only, Jacob found that wasn’t what happened at all. Far from becoming one of the lads, as he’d hoped, he felt even more alienated from them as their physiques changed and Jacob’s remained the same.

Doesn't sound like informed consent to me.

I'll put an archive link in a separate post as it may be hidden by MN. Or you can just put the link into archive dot ph if you don't have a subscription to the Times.

Archive link.
https://archive.li/cyJsl

I would expect any parent who has made this decision for their child should have done a huge depth of research about the topic though. We have no idea what drug has been prescribed to which patient, whether it is for transition or precocious puberty, but it is not hard to find the Lupron issues and go from there.

You might expect it, but a lot of people won't do this. In my experience, most people trust their doctors to give the right advice and prescribe the right medication. Very few go off and read research papers and find the information written for medical professionals. At most they read the patient information leaflet or perhaps something on the NHS website.

Not true that they are not causing issues when used for precocious puberty. A previous poster has already mentioned a study that found serious effects that only emerged in adulthood including low bone density and (I think) fertility problems. I also remember reading a study which found reduction in IQ in children after treatment, but I can't find it now. Anyone else know that study?

I know the discussion here is on the drugs, but I would be interested also on knowing more about puberty itself. For example, is each individual “programmed”, for want of a better term, to start puberty at a particular age? Is precocious puberty due to external factors like exposure to hormones, or a disorder of the endocrine system or just that individual’s body doing its thing?

the reason I’m asking is because I had a vague idea that puberty happening is inexorable like all other growth from birth to adulthood. It will happen when your body decides it’s time to happen. So when you take drugs to postpone it, if you desist after that window, your body will be “too late, you’ve missed the slot”. And you can take some (correct sex) hormones that will replicate some features of an adult body but the long term health implications are many and serious.

is that right?

Might it be this one? https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01053

Ah ok, that makes sense. Restarting a delayed male puberty is a bit different to the situation where you may now be a male with breasts.

thanks - so a girls “puberty window” could be shifted by her weight?

I know the discussion here is on the drugs, but I would be interested also on knowing more about puberty itself. For example, is each individual “programmed”, for want of a better term, to start puberty at a particular age? Is precocious puberty due to external factors like exposure to hormones, or a disorder of the endocrine system or just that individual’s body doing its thing?

the reason I’m asking is because I had a vague idea that puberty happening is inexorable like all other growth from birth to adulthood. It will happen when your body decides it’s time to happen. So when you take drugs to postpone it, if you desist after that window, your body will be “too late, you’ve missed the slot”. And you can take some (correct sex) hormones that will replicate some features of an adult body but the long term health implications are many and serious.

I think these are very relevant questions and I would also be interested in understanding this better.

I know I've read that in other periods of history girls went through puberty on average later.

I've mentioned this before, but I was put on 6 months of zoladex (a GnRHa) for endometriosis back in the late 90s when I was in my 20s, no oestrogen add-in then, it was extremely unpleasant. In my late 40s, I was found to have early osteoporosis and an endocrine disorder that I will have for the rest of my life. Is there a connection? Who knows. I've certainly not been followed up, no medic is interested in whether there is a connection.

I have contacted the Endometriosis Society on several occasions, but they are completely captured and cannot even state that this is a disease of women let alone what these long term effects may be.

One aspect of pubertal suppression that doesn't get much discussion is how it appears to eradicate the development of sexuality and romantic attraction. It's been spoken of by Jazz Jennings, by the child 'Jacob' in the Telegraph article linked to above, and also one of the interviewees in the Hannah Barnes book Time To Think. All have spoken of not having teenage crushes, or being unsure who they are attracted to, of being without romantic/sexual feelings towards others.

Also the Dutch studies that the whole puberty blockers protocol is built on report that in adulthood, while most are happy with their transition, none of the participants are in settled romantic partnerships.

I fear this is one of this unmeasurable effects that may have damaging long term effects on quality of life.

I'm sick of seeing it said that the effects are reversible, when no one knows yet exactly what the effects are.

There's a child in my family currently going through prep to start blockade with the Tavistock. So it's still happening in the UK.

All very true.

I was definitely too quick with the statement and the sentiment behind it. I wanted to put the PP's mind at ease because it was the gender identity issue I was referring to and I knew they were licensed for precocious puberty. In hindsight that was not the right thing to have done at all.

Small (and indefensible) excuse: in parallel to this thread I was in a debate on Twitter about the very same subject. So my succinct response was because my head was in the Tweet-style zone, rather than long form MN-style. Thankfully I hadn't said anything like that on Twitter. The Twitter thread is mostly me being asked bonkers questions and getting insulted, whilst (I am) staying calm and succinct. No purpose to it other than I'm keen to understand what the view is from the "other side". It's unsurprisingly all about the idea that puberty can be induced with synthetic hormones (their view) and that TWAW (their view). The content of their pushback is helpful to see because when I speak about this in real life, I am aware of some of the counterarguments for what I'm saying.

But yes, to your point. I would expect any parent to do their own research. A request for puberty blockers from my daughter last year in the summer is what started me on my whole research journey. Initially I restricted it to just the issue in hand (the blockers) then widened it so that I could help her navigate the bigger picture (her feelings about "gender")... and then widened it again and again and again (still going) so that I am informed and can converse on this multi-faceted and hugely important world issue.

Absolutely. Amongst all the chilling issues around puberty blockers being used in this context, this one feels like the tip of a huge iceberg. It's a small indication of the likely impact on brain development.
Jazz also sounds quite childish in the way that Jazz speaks. From the perspective of how Jazz describes their feelings and so on. By that stage of adulthood you'd expect a different take on things. I've never listened to Jackie Green speak, apart from a really odd video which was supposedly a debunk of Posie Parker's online commentary review of Susie Green's TEDtalk. Jackie didn't really speak as such. It was more like a barrage of insults with no substance. If that is representative of how Jackie speaks on subjects, then it sounds like Jackie has a childish mentality too.

Both Jazz and Jackie are victims in this 😞😞

My post was more about how much misinformation there is rather than being aimed at your initial post bonfire.

It was also about linguistics and how the repetition of puberty blockers has become almost euphemistic like top surgery and bottom surgery. And how the organisations meant to inform and support are not actually doing their jobs.

My dd was tested for PP, she didn’t have it, in her case it turned out that it was only premature adrenarche so no treatment needed. However her consultant at the time said he had concerns over puberty blockers and that they had consequences.
I think it does depend how long a child is on them but I have read that bone density and IQ can be affected, and both those things were mentioned by the consultant.

I know someone who potentially had lupron or the like in the 90s too. She doesn’t know. For a completely difference purpose.

she now has severe osteoporosis, just doing housework can mean a breakage, teeth falling out, and many other issues including endocrinology issue. No specialists in the nhs know why or seem interested in finding out. It might or might not be something connected. However, your story resonates.

That's really shocking.

It's quite clear even from the two posts quoted above that there really does need to be some follow-up to this by the NHS. They must have records that show what drugs people were given in the past and they could look at the health issues in that group now.

I guess the probem is a lack of interest, will or the desire to do so. 😡