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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where did the 'fact' that puberty blockers are reversible come from?

138 replies

WarriorN · 25/08/2023 14:52

Following the Roisin Murphy thread where a poster on a forum that was linked stated:

"puberty blockers are reversible, fact"

Does anyone know exactly what the evidence for that claim was based on originally?

Bits I've read by Michael Biggs weave a tangled tale of clinicians saying It Is So but no real scientific evidence?

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Delphinium20 · 25/08/2023 21:13

They are totally safe in this scenario. It's what they are licensed to treat.

This is an irresponsible claim. There is evidence of patients treated with blockers for precocious puberty who in their 20s and 30s have bone density issues and teeth breakdowns.

www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 25/08/2023 21:52

A commentary on
Cognitive, Emotional, and Psychosocial Functioning of Girls Treated with Pharmacological Puberty Blockage for Idiopathic Central Precocious Puberty
by Wojniusz, S., Callens, N., Sütterlin, S., Andersson, S., De Schepper, J., Gies, I., et al. (2016). Front. Psychol. 7:1053. doi: ^10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01053^

Taken from [[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full#B8

Gonadotropin releasing hormone agonists (GnRHas) have been found to impair memory in adults, so the study by Wojniusz et al. (2016) on the possible cognitive effects of these drugs on children treated for idiopathic central precocious puberty (CPP) represents an important contribution to research in this area. Recent findings that GnRHas increase depression symptoms (Macoveanu et al., 2016) and slow reaction time (Stenbæk et al., 2016) in healthy women, and reduce long-term spatial memory in sheep (Hough et al., 2017) underline the importance of the research that Wojniusz et al. (2016) have undertaken. However, their reassuring statement in the abstract that girls undergoing GnRHa treatment for CPP and controls “showed very similar scores with regard to cognitive performance” and their conclusion that “GnRHa treated girls do not differ in their cognitive functioning … from the same age peers” (Wojniusz et al., 2016) may be overly optimistic. These statements minimize the fairly substantial difference found in IQ scores and may also overemphasize its lack of statistical significance, as given the small number of participants in the study statistical significance has a high threshold. The statements should be qualified to indicate that the research has, in fact, reinforced concerns over the impact of GnRHas on cognitive performance in children.

Girls treated for CPP with triptorelin acetate were tested with the short form Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children III. It was found that the girls had a mean IQ of 94, as against a mean IQ of 102 for the matched control group (Wojniusz et al., 2016). These IQ estimations are presented as standardized IQ scores, which places a girl scoring 102 at the 55th percentile, and a girl scoring of 94 at the 34th percentile. It is questionable whether scores that indicate a percentile gap of this size can be described as “very similar.” The 8 point gap is not statistically significant (p = 0.09) but, as the authors point out, this may be a function of the small number of participants (15 treated girls, 15 controls).

The authors contend that despite the small number of participants the results can—probably—be relied on to indicate that if GnRHas do cause a decline in IQ, this decline will be under 1 standard deviation (SD), which “represents a boundary of what is a clinically interesting difference” (Wojniusz et al., 2016). The contention that a decline only becomes clinically interesting if it is of at least 1 standard deviation is unconvincing. Any findings which indicate that GnRHas cause a decline, even a modest decline, in IQ are likely to be of considerable interest to patients and their parents. It is a factor that they may well want to consider in deciding whether or not to take the drug. They may, for example, wish to consider the possible effect of GnRHas on a child's school and exam performance. In this respect it can be noted that 2 of the treated girls had been held back a year at school. Given their advanced physical maturity, children with precocious puberty may find it particularly uncomfortable to be put in a class where they are a year older than their class mates. If GnRHa treatment does cause a reduction in IQ, this may contribute to the decision to place a child in a lower age year group. Certainly, treatment that has a deleterious effect on IQ will do nothing to help children who are academically behind to catch up.

The question of whether a drop in IQ of around 8 points has clinical significance must also be considered in the context of the uncertain benefits of GnRHa treatment for CPP. The ability of GnRHas to increase final height has not been confirmed by randomized controlled trials (Bouvattier et al., 1999; Cassio et al., 1999). Where girls with CPP experience psychosocial difficulties, providing support rather than drugs may be the most appropriate response (Hayes, 2016).
The findings of Wojniusz et al. (2016) can be compared with those of a 2001 study in which 25 children treated for early puberty with triptorelin acetate were tested with the short form Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (Mul et al., 2001). In this longitudinal study, children took the IQ test before treatment and again after 2 years of treatment. It was found that their IQ dropped 7 points from 100 to 93. With 25 treated participants, this 7 point drop was significant (p = 0.002). In both studies the difference in the performance element of the test was greater than in the verbal element. The similarities between the findings of these two studies strengthens their reliability and increases the possibility that GnRHa treatment may have an adverse impact on cognitive functioning in children. This makes it yet more important for further research to be carried out into the effects GnRHas may have on cognitive performance in children.

Commentary: Cognitive, Emotional, and Psychosocial Functioning of Girls Treated with Pharmacological Puberty Blockage for Idiopathic Central Precocious Puberty

Gonadotropin releasing hormone agonists (GnRHas) have been found to impair memory in adults, so the study by Wojniusz et al. (2016) on the possible cognitive effects of these drugs on children treated for idiopathic central precocious puberty (CPP) rep...

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full#B8

WarriorN · 25/08/2023 22:04

Thank you Neighbourhood.

It's not correct to say they are completely safe or reversible, is it.

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WarriorN · 25/08/2023 22:06

Helleofabore I think there was a poster here for a while who shared her chronic health issues due to the drug (I remember thyroid being one) but I can't remember more details

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Helleofabore · 25/08/2023 22:11

Warrior, I reckon I could keep posting article after article about the girls and women reporting long term health issues due to Lupron. Apparently the pharmaceutical company have tweaked it and the new drug has a different name, yet I have read some doctors expect it will have some of the similar side effects.

In female people Lupron was used for precocious puberty, IVF, and endometriosis.

Boomboom22 · 25/08/2023 22:14

Should be banned for all uses really. Such permanent side effects .

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 25/08/2023 22:20

Back in 2021, in the Daily Telegraph, on 20th March.

This is an endocrinologist and senior lecturer at a university, who is clearly trying not to condemn the administration of GnRH analogues. Yet, even he has to clarify that they aren't 'reversible'.

There is controversy over whether puberty blockers (GnRH-analogues) are reversible. They were originally developed to treat prostate cancer and endometriosis, but are also used to treat children with precocious puberty and some adult transpeople. They are administered via injection or implant and ‘switch off ’ sex-hormone production; started in early puberty, they bring adolescence to a halt. ‘Are blockers reversible? It depends what you mean, by reversible,’ says Dr Richard Quinton, an endocrinologist and senior lecturer at Newcastle University. ‘When the blockers wear off, a young person’s own sex hormones will “wake up” again,’ he says. ‘This includes a resumption of fertility, but the process of building stronger teenage bones is disrupted and may not be entirely recoverable.’ Even the effects of cross-sex hormones are ‘to some extent reversible upon stopping, but the truth is that no one quite knows for any individual person’. Rumours that puberty blockers cause cognitive or behavioural difficulties have not been substantiated, he says.

Taken from: [[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/truth-parent-transitioning-teen/

The truth about being a parent to a transitioning teen

Sandwiched between both sides of a highly-charged debate are anguished parents trying to do the right thing for their children

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/truth-parent-transitioning-teen

NotBadConsidering · 25/08/2023 22:36

DadJoke · 25/08/2023 16:20

The effects of puberty blockers are reversible. If a person stops taking puberty blockers, the effects of puberty will return or resume. That's what reversible means in this context.

This is not entirely true and neither is this:

In medical terms they are reversible in that once you stop taking them hormone production will resume.

It is not entirely known if this statement holds true for a lengthening time period. Puberty blockers when used for central precocious puberty (CPP) are always stopped after a few years and the hypothalamus resumes its job. But what happens if you use puberty blockers for 5 years? Or 10 years? It is not certain that hormone production from the hypothalamus will resume and it also not certain that the response in the gonads will resume.

There is also evidence that the testes can atrophy and sclerose after years of no use which means that even if the hypothalamus resumes its job, no testosterone will be able to be produced and puberty will not resume.

OhcantthInkofaname · 25/08/2023 22:52

I have a science background and I'm not sure. I don't know if they are giving puberty blockers and alternate hormones at the same time (for example suppressing testosterone and giving estrogen).

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 00:02

When my kids were teenagers a book called 'Blame My Brain: the Amazing Teenage Brain Revealed' by Nicola Morgan, was a best seller.

During the teenage years the brain is undergoing its most radical and fundamental change since the age of two.

Even if puberty blockers did not have horrific side effects of their own, how can blocking this extremely important stage of child development be benign?

Imagine a 'blocker' that delayed a 2 y/o's normal development. How is this any better?

WarriorN · 26/08/2023 08:18

Pencils, all the local safeguarding training I've done discusses that, especially when we cover severe abuse in early childhood. Because the brain changes are so rapid in the teen years, on a similar level to 0-3, positive input at that point can do a lot to support more positive outcomes for an individual child.

Which is why I'm even more concerned about the children who were referred with multiple issues including trauma as the act of puberty plus a lot of support would have surely been a better long term solution.

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WarriorN · 26/08/2023 08:21

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision I do know that Newcastle university teaching faculty is completely captured. They signed some sort of trans pledge a little while ago. No idea where he stands.

(He also spoke out a lot about vitamin d in the pandemic and they have massive doses to patients with severe covid iirc, with positive results.)

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WarriorN · 26/08/2023 08:22

Works with Lorimer et al

gendercare.co.uk/richard-quinton.shtml

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WarriorN · 26/08/2023 08:27

I have been a Consultant Endocrinologist and university Senior Lecturer in Newcastle-upon-Tyne since 1999 and have published nearly 200 academic papers, establishing Newcastle as an internationally recognised centre for rare disorders of puberty and fertility. I working closely with colleagues in child health, gynaecology and andrology as well as Gender and have just drafted UK guidelines for the management of male hypogonadism on behalf of the Society for Endocrinology, which are currently under review.

That website hasn't been updated since 2022 and still has coronavirus status all over it; I wonder if it's still going?

His write up mentions some rooms

However, please also note that, as the private consulting rooms at Newcastle Hospitals are currently mothballed due to Covid-19 pandemic, this will perforce be a video-consultation until circumstances improve definitively.

I'd be surprised if that's still the case,

I also wonder if anyone among that lot was who treated Richie and if his potential action had any impact?

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WarriorN · 26/08/2023 08:32

I don't know if that set up is still going as Lorimer went to London. Last post is nov 21.

Quinton was endocrine support.

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WarriorN · 26/08/2023 08:32

(On their Facebook.)

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WarriorN · 26/08/2023 08:34

Quinton now here and does Teenage-Transition Endocrine clinic (monthly) among other things.

https://www.newcastle-hospitals.nhs.uk/consultants/dr-richard-quinton/

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BonfireLady · 26/08/2023 08:54

Delphinium20 · 25/08/2023 21:13

They are totally safe in this scenario. It's what they are licensed to treat.

This is an irresponsible claim. There is evidence of patients treated with blockers for precocious puberty who in their 20s and 30s have bone density issues and teeth breakdowns.

www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems

Yes, fair point. They were my words and I should have chosen them more carefully.
What was foremost in my mind at this point was reassuring the poster who was concerned about their own child who had precocious puberty.

I should definitely have chosen my words better. As with any treatment, there are side effects and there is a weighing up of risk/benefit that the doctor will set out so that the patient (or parent of the patient in the case of children) can make an informed choice.

Informed choice is possible in this scenario because it's licensed, so the information (on which the choice can be made) is there. By contrast, the "informed choice" for their use in gender dysphoria treatment is a misnomer. The data isn't there on which to be informed because there has been no clinical testing.

ReginaRegina · 26/08/2023 08:54

I'm not particularly knowledgeable, but couldn't a boy who'd missed puberty just take testosterone to commence development of male attributes?

AlisonDonut · 26/08/2023 09:22

ReginaRegina · 26/08/2023 08:54

I'm not particularly knowledgeable, but couldn't a boy who'd missed puberty just take testosterone to commence development of male attributes?

Yes this may have happened.

You would think a gender clinic prescribing these drugs would have kept records and found out, right? I mean if a not particularly knowledgeable person could think to ask this question, surely qualified doctors would?

WarriorN · 26/08/2023 09:24

I think a particular factor in the "they're irreversible" situation is that 98% of children who start them go onto cross sex hormones which are completely irreversible.

So it's part of the active transition rather than giving a pause to try and think which is how they were billed.

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WarriorN · 26/08/2023 09:24

You'd think wouldn't you Alison. 🤨

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Zodfa · 26/08/2023 09:27

I shudder to think how horrible the kids at my secondary school would have been to someone on puberty blockers. They must stand out like a sore thumb. Even with active intervention by the school I doubt you could stamp it out entirely. Hardly what you want from an intervention supposedly done on mental health grounds.

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