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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle

814 replies

DerekFaker · 22/01/2023 22:40

About the Scottish gender recognition bill

OP posts:
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35
Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 20:06

Apparently

Mollyollydolly · 27/01/2023 20:11

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 17:49
It’s a paradox for me. Through my working life I have tried to treat everyone properly, equally and fairly, no matter what their protected characteristic.

But the worst of you here treat trans people just as you would complain about men treating women historically.

A little bit of self-reflection and self-awareness goes a long way.

But I’m sure you will just keep stirring your cauldrons.

’Bye for now.

First page of this thread I said how nice it was to have a respectful debate even if I disagreed with RMW.
I take it back - sod off Robin.

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 20:21

Mollyollydolly · 27/01/2023 20:11

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 17:49
It’s a paradox for me. Through my working life I have tried to treat everyone properly, equally and fairly, no matter what their protected characteristic.

But the worst of you here treat trans people just as you would complain about men treating women historically.

A little bit of self-reflection and self-awareness goes a long way.

But I’m sure you will just keep stirring your cauldrons.

’Bye for now.

First page of this thread I said how nice it was to have a respectful debate even if I disagreed with RMW.
I take it back - sod off Robin.

You see that was never going to happen.

But it's good you still have hope!

That's rare here 😁

happydappy2 · 27/01/2023 20:21

so a person who 'identifies as a woman' has just called women witches.....I see. The abuse can only go one way though can't it.

Very illuminating.

Also I don't think Robin does treat people properly and fairly as Robin uses females spaces rather than male ones. No respect for womens boundaries at all.

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 20:25

happydappy2 · 27/01/2023 20:21

so a person who 'identifies as a woman' has just called women witches.....I see. The abuse can only go one way though can't it.

Very illuminating.

Also I don't think Robin does treat people properly and fairly as Robin uses females spaces rather than male ones. No respect for womens boundaries at all.

And whilst you would assume from the deleted posts that the abuse did go both ways, alas most posts were removed for stating biological fact about the guests of a piece of tv footage we had watched.

And Sarah hasn't had a problem being addressed as she, so.....?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 27/01/2023 21:23

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 19:59

Well Sarah, it looks like you're not alone in your thinking.

Good for Janice. She must have run it past the lawyers at the Times. It's long overdue that the toxic IPSO guidelines implemented following the demands of Press for change, Trans media watch and all the other male dominated organisations insisting on hiding facts and free speech (especially about criminals) were challenged. I've been wondering which of the campaigning press would pick this up. Good for her and the Times.

MorvenOfMalvern · 27/01/2023 21:45

It's like what's happening on social media and general conversations. If enough people just use sex based language and "dead names" and just say, "odfod, just, no" ultimately what's going to happen? You can't sue everyone. You can't issue corrections and apologies for every article.

It's a cultural shift and it needs to happen.

beastlyslumber · 27/01/2023 21:49

Well it's fantastic to see an actual debate happening.

Has anyone listened to Meghan Murphy's latest podcast? That is basically the lens through which I see males who are trying to access and take over women's spaces.

beastlyslumber · 27/01/2023 21:50

Sorry, that's a bit obscure, isn't it? I'll try and start a separate thread maybe.

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 21:52

You see in the real world if all the people on this thread were all in a room at the same time do you honestly think for one moment any single one of 87 of the 88 (I've not counted those i know to be using more than one@ in this thread) would be speaking the way we are having to do on here about the 88th poster who is the person Sarah debated about..

None of us would. And Robin knows it.

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 21:54

beastlyslumber · 27/01/2023 21:50

Sorry, that's a bit obscure, isn't it? I'll try and start a separate thread maybe.

😁💜

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 21:55

@beastlyslumber serially had you seen some the the stuff on this thread. The more the merrier.

beastlyslumber · 27/01/2023 22:04

Posted a new thread, Beetz.

Haven't read through this one but I imagine there's more holes in it than Madonna's vest top in 1984.

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 22:06

beastlyslumber · 27/01/2023 22:04

Posted a new thread, Beetz.

Haven't read through this one but I imagine there's more holes in it than Madonna's vest top in 1984.

It's a good example of tell a lie prove you just lied by your own words though.

GiantKitten · 27/01/2023 23:24

This is Janice Turner’s column about trans prisoners - hope it will open, I’m not sure how Apple News links work.

Scotland dispensed with Elizabeth Fry’s first principle years ago.
Indeed, trans activists strategically targeted prison policy. James Morton, head of the Scottish Trans Alliance, formulated the SPS’s rules. By enabling the service “to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances”, he wrote, “we would be able to ensure all other public services do likewise”. In other words, if horrible things happen to female prisoners, no one will find out (or even care), so we can “prove” to the NHS or schools that self-ID is risk-free.

apple.news/AU8M2eAKHRY-PcZSKMtU6pg

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 23:29

so, @beastlyslumber did go and start a thread.

Turns out the podcast is illuminating in regards to some of the conversations we would have in this thread if we could.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4729845-illuminating-and-disturbing-view-from-a-psychologist?reply=123441712

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 23:31

GiantKitten · 27/01/2023 23:24

This is Janice Turner’s column about trans prisoners - hope it will open, I’m not sure how Apple News links work.

Scotland dispensed with Elizabeth Fry’s first principle years ago.
Indeed, trans activists strategically targeted prison policy. James Morton, head of the Scottish Trans Alliance, formulated the SPS’s rules. By enabling the service “to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances”, he wrote, “we would be able to ensure all other public services do likewise”. In other words, if horrible things happen to female prisoners, no one will find out (or even care), so we can “prove” to the NHS or schools that self-ID is risk-free.

apple.news/AU8M2eAKHRY-PcZSKMtU6pg

It opened fine for me, and if it helps I'm not on a 🍎device.

Thanks

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 23:44

come back Robin, come and have a conversation with the 87 witches. Give us your thoughts on this from the above article.

Dr James Barrett, president of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists, warned parliament’s women and equalities committee this was ripe for exploitation. He described “a tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences”. He said the reasons were obvious: women’s prisons are nicer, inmates believe a female persona would play well with parole boards, but mainly there was “a plethora of prison intelligence” that the driving force “was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier”. The chairwoman, Maria Miller, ignored him.

Surely you've got some wise words to put us womenly minds at rest about this. to explain how any of this is fucking acceptable.

Come on Robin. Your the legal bod on this thread. You think this is perfectly alright. .you think it's fine that if a man says he's a woman then he is.

Come back and explain to us bigots and transphobic women, how the Fucking hell this is Fucking acceptable.

Because there is 87 posters on here who would really like to know how this is OK just so that you can get to be called a 🤐🤐🤐.No.I'm not saying it. You don't get that. It's not your word to use. It's ours. And wants and wishes will never make it so.

Come on Robin, talk to us witches.

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 23:45

Men cannot and never will be women.

Never.

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2023 23:54

Just because the response tweet is fucking ace

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle
IcakethereforeIam · 28/01/2023 00:08

So, when shall we 87 meet again? 🐈‍⬛️

Boiledbeetle · 28/01/2023 01:39

Hold on cake just in the middle of something...

It's the stage play of this thread I think it starts well, what do you think?

SCENE I. A terven. In the middle, a boiling cauldron.

Thunder. Enter the three Witches

Boiledbeetle:
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.

IcakethereforeIam:
Thrice and once the hedge-pig whined.

Spero:
Harpier cries 'Tis time, 'tis time.

Boiledbeetle:
Round about the cauldron go;
In the poison'd entrails throw.
Toad, that under cold stone
Days and nights has thirty-one
Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i' the charmed pot.

ALL
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.

IcakethereforeIam:
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

ALL:
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

Spero:
Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,
Witches' mummy, maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,
Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark,
Liver of blaspheming Jew,
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Silver'd in the moon's eclipse,
Nose of Turk and Tartar's lips,
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For the ingredients of our cauldron.

ALL:
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

IcakethereforeIam:
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

Enter Helleofabore to the other three Witches

Helleofabore:
O well done! I commend your pains;
And every one shall share i' the gains;
And now about the cauldron sing,
Live elves and fairies in a ring,
Enchanting all that you put in.

Music and a song: 'Black spirits,'

Helleofabore retires

IcakethereforeIam:
By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks!
Whoever knocks!

Enter Robinmoirawhite:

Robinmoirawhite:
How now, you secret, black, and midnight hags! What is't you do?

ALL:
A deed without a name.

Robinmoirawhite:

I conjure you, by that which you profess,
Howe'er you come to know it, answer me:
Though you untie the winds and let them fight
Against the churches; though the yesty waves
Confound and swallow navigation up;
Though bladed corn be lodged and trees blown down;
Though castles topple on their warders' heads;
Though palaces and pyramids do slope
Their heads to their foundations; though the treasure
Of nature's germens tumble all together,
Even till destruction sicken; answer me
To what I ask you.

Boiledbeetle:
Speak.

IcakethereforeIam:
Demand

Spero:
We'll answer.

Boiledbeetle:
Say, if thou'dst rather hear it from our mouths,Or from our masters?

Robinmoirawhite:
Call 'em; let me see 'em.

Boiledbeetle:
Pour in sow's blood, that hath eaten her nine farrow; grease that's sweaten from the murderer's gibbet thrown Into the flame.

Obviously it needs a bit of work.

Anyway, yeah, whenever you are free!

MassiveWordSalad · 28/01/2023 09:19

@Boiledbeetle Grin I hope you're getting some rest after all that!

Incidentally, using 'witches' as an insult to women is an excellent way to show that you are not, in fact, a woman.

EdithStourton · 28/01/2023 09:20

Happy to be an understudy.
(User advisory: I cannot act)

DialSquare · 28/01/2023 09:23

I would have loved to have a part in the play but I've been using my cauldron for it's other use so I'm a bit slurred and unsteady on my feet.

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