Recommend me a book!

[RibenaBerry]

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

dittony-
[its a power and terrotry grab by men against women]
help me understand this please-as i cant!
ok-lets just say for "arguments"sake[im not arguing though]that this was the case-
once "he"has gone down the road of transisioning ect-"he s" got this power and terrotory!-then what Dittony?
by then-"he"may of lost "hes"family and friends-people may be ridiculing "him"-
some dont take "him"seriously"-
sometimes "he"is scared to go out-
"he"can have trouble with realashionships-
ect ect ect-and to boot-"he"has even ended up with no penis!!
this doesnt sound too powerful to me!
i appologise to any transwoman for using the term"he"-

I only bothered reading teh first couple of lines of that fish thing - one ten year old study into fish is hardly conclusive indisputable evidence.

Some fish actually can change their sex can't they - if there aren't enough of one sex then some change to the other sex all by themselves.

We aren't fish though, are we.

selacious i enjoyed your post and it is very thought provoking reading your experineces, at the same time I do feel for you the difficult decisions that you have had to make (and are making) about something so fundemantal, it must all be very very hard.

I related to this part "Those that don?t conform are sort of put to one side and scorned upon. There?s the instilled patriarchal view handed down. And so the boys and girls only thing continues. For all my difficulties and identity problems I never knew there could be another option. So at some point there?s a thought processes that goes ? oh my word I?m not a man?, because of the socialised re-enforced message of the bi-polared system that means there is only one other option." which i think ties in with what i have been saying that if our society was not so highly gendered maybe people would not have these feeings so much.

We need to fight for a society where people can be what they are, without being forced into such tightly defined roles.

"Selacious if you were born with an intersex condition, none of the arguments on this thread apply to you anyway."

Selacious has stated above that she was made a boy and grew up and lived as a man, therefore you must have changed your mind about growing up with male privilege then dittany?

You now disagree with the statement below made by you, and the numerous & humourous claims of the privilege of trans women made by Sakara/ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE/ISNT?

"A man who had been able to take advantage of every privilege offered to male academics before deciding he preferred frocks and lippy, had no business elbowing his way into that arena."

Why are you ascribing single quotations to multiple posters?

We are not all the same person, you will need to address your points to the person who made them.

Your point also seems confused, I can't quite grasp what exactly you are asking.

ISNT - I apologise if you aren't Sakara or her sock puppet ISNTitFUNtoBEinDISGUISE.

As long as you want to carry on spouting your rubbish on this thread dittany, I will be here with you to counter the lies.

You didn't to manage comment on the content of my post. You haven't answered my previous questions either. In fact, you never comment on the links or quotes placed on this thread. Would this be that you think you are right so you are right, despite the evidence? That's a rhetorical question btw as I don't expect an answer.

Oh, and I haven't requested that your abusive comments towards me and other commenters be removed dittany - only the transphobic ones.

I don't follow your methods of dishing out the shit and then when it is pointed out that it is shit then going woe is me, defend me, MumsNet is out to get me and being all unfair.

It is clear from several comments that you don't even read other people's comments. You just make stuff up. Well, ignorance like that cannot be ignored.

Please clarify what your questions were, Earwigca. It's been a long and fraught thread and maybe your questions were lost amidst the accusations of bigotry and insults.

I would suggest that, until you apologise to Dittany for your personal attacks on her, it is perfectly reasonable for her to refuse to engage in a discussion with you. By all means put across your position, but don't resort to personal mud-slinging because it looks bad and it spoils the conversation.

dittany:

"I don't think I"ve said anything about male privilege."

dittany:

"A man who had been able to take advantage of every privilege offered to male academics before deciding he preferred frocks and lippy, had no business elbowing his way into that arena."

Get your story straight mate, these comments are both on this thread.

It's not a question lifeissweet - just putting dittany's contradictary comments together.

You think that I am Sakura? Bloody hell that is paranoid.

I have had enough of this actually, I think that I have put my position quite clearly over the last couple of days.

I have learnt a lot on this thread, both good and bad - I never knew that there was such a thing as trans feminism before and that has been an eye opener, also posts from people about their lives and their children have been very interesting.

sparky and selacious it has been really nice meeting you, and trying to get somewhere with this conversation. It would be nice to see you around again on the boards

On that note I am clicking hide as I can't be arsed with all this aggression, I'm back at work now and dont' have the time for it that I used to

Dittany I feel like shouting "leave it, it's not worth it" in the manner of someone on eastenders and hauling you away, this is just going to get nastier and nastier.

Night all

Why bother...? You can quote someone, ask a question and then just be called names and insulted. Dittany earlier justified making small penis gags at my expense by saying she was returning the serve, or some such thing! having looked back not sure where I did any name calling... but that's beside the point... i'm called worse!

Clearly, the more I read, the more the anti trans standpoint sounds like a creationist argument against evolution. they can't move on and are laboured with 20th Cent feminist theory up to their evolutionary gills and refuse to move any further along a scientific route in terms of definition of what gender actually is to an individual creature...

I'm off to scratch myself and look for me keys.

I agree, ISNT. This thread has been very educational in a lot of ways and some posters have been very open with their stories and points of view, which is always a good thing. I think I would have seen this thread as a good opportunity to discuss some of the realities of trans gender people and to have a proper, adult conversation about what it all means - for women and for society.

Unfortunately, this was an opportunity that was not taken by some. Instead of answering genuine questions, or responding in a dignified way to points of view, the shouting of 'bigot' somewhat ruined the open nature of the debate. I think that is a shame, because I'm genuinely interested in finding some common ground. I have said above that I believe trans women are also victims of a society that likes to box people into male and female boxes based on gender definitions that are cultural in origin and defined by the patriachy. I would have liked to explore that further, but am afrai of being labelled a bigot for merely having questions.

Thank you to all of the reasonable posters on here. I have enjoyed reading what you have said. Earwigca, I think it's a shame that you have been so aggressive and undermined your argument. I understand that it is a touchy subject because it is for feminists too, but it is really no excuse.

Lovely straw man dittany. Instead of engaging with anything you read that disagrees with you, then resort to to pathetic comments. Ha de ha ha.

lepapa, I think you need to explain what parallels there are, if any, between evolution and transgender.

The use of analogies without any explanation of whether a formal or relational analogy are being used, or how they are comparable in any kind of scientific or philosophical sense has been rife on this thread.

I realise that is not your fault, but I don't think you are putting forward any kind of argument that people can engage with unless there's a bit more to it than saying a kangaroo is like a cherry cake without any explanation as to why.

in answer to some of the questions-
ok-as im still having difficulty explaining-
ill try and explain how i feel like this-so-
ok-society sees men and women and nothing else!
a baby is born that has a male body so is pecieved as a boy!
when this boy is growning up-he dont feel comfatable with himself-he dont fit in with the boys-he dont feel right-and although he trys to fit in-he cant!
he feels more comfatable with the girls-and in fact-he has more in common with the girls!
he s jealous of the girls cos he dont look like one of the girls-he feels he should look like them cos he feels he is a girl-
he feels frightened of what he feels and he feels ashamed-all the other boys are taking the piss out of him-the girls wont fully accept him!he hates hes penis and he wants to cut it off!
he might be able to find some happy times though-when he steals hes sisters clothes for a little while!
he cant look in a mirror-cos what he sees dont fit with what he feels!
as he gets older-he is then horrified cos hes body is changing-and he wants to die!
he s bodys let him down-its the wrong one!
he spends hes time being preoccapied by women-but its only cos he feels hes one-and he goes to bed at night and prays to got to let him out of this hell!
in the meantime-hes frightened of gettin hes head kicked in-or being raped into "being a man"-oh and hes dad hates him and hes family are embarressed!
he then trys to "look"normal-and trys hes best to fit in-he cant!
moving on-when hes with hes wife/girlfriend-
he just about dies-he loves her but he desperatly wants to be like her-cos he feels like her and no one can see it!
he was never a man!!!
ill try and get it from this to what else ive been trying to say!

i mean ill try and explain how i see things!

Sparky, I think that is a very clear description, and it is what I have imagined happens. And yes, he has never been a man, he has been a boy.

And I think what is being argued on this thread, is that none of the negative things in that process are inevitable. A boy can like girls things and like feminine things, and that should be acceptable. Other men should change their culture so that it is acceptable to be a boy and like all of those things. The culture of masculinity should change to be more inclusive.

Interesting fish study LePapa.

What that seems to show is that behaviour associated with gender is more varied than sex, which is a dichotomy.

I think we can all agree on that.

I've had to avoid this thread for a few days, but I take it that somebody has already explained that all XX people-females- are born fully XX. There is no grey area when it comes to females.

XY-males-are born as different variations of one another. So trans women and CID children are XY.
That's why men have nipples.

SO it literally does not make any sense for trans women to be considered in the XX bracket. They are XY. CID children are XY.

Patriarchy, at some point, is going to have to accept that Eve was not made from Adam's rib. It's just the opposite.
Females are not defective males, as Aristotle claimed. Females are all born whole.

All men are variations. Patriarchy insists that the only real men are the masculine ones. That is a big problem for the majority of men, and is arguably connected to the rape culture because 'real' men have to prove that they're 'real'. Over and over and over again.

At some point, men are going to have to accept all the men who digress from the norm.

If my boy grows up to like girly things I would first assume that he's being true to himself and not copying what he's 'supposed' to like. Which is a good thing.
If he continues to display feminine traits, I would assume he was sensitive. Or he may turn out to be gay, who knows?
At any rate, what right do any parents have to to impose their conservative world view onto a boy about what boys 'should' be doing?. WHat right have parents got to begin hormone treatment to suppress his testosterone at puberty because he made the 'terrible' mistake of liking dolls when he was two? That is a very conservative, right-wing view of the world. WHat right have they got to tell him he's a 'girl' i.e an XX female. That's a lie, first of all. He's not a girl. He's merely displaying feminine traits.

Trans argument aside, I think changing that backward way of thinking would do us all a favour. Agreed?

sakura-
what does Patriarchy mean?[im not scared to say that i dont understand something]
im thinking its meaning something to do with how its sometimes seen as men/power ect?
[patriarchy is going to have to accept at some point.......]

society is going to have to accept at some point that transpeople do exist/have the right to exist/have the right not to be abused[ie you dont exist-or youre basically a non person]

[if my boy grew up to like girly things........]
yes-i agree with you Sakura-only with a child with gid-its a bit diffrent!

[what right do parents have to begin hormone..........]
its not about the rights of the parents-its about the rights of the child Sakura!

[i think that changing that backward way of thinking.............]
well-if youre saying that boys should be allowed to play with girls stuff ect ect-yes of course i agree with you!
if youre saying that young people shouldnt be given blockers and its about parents rights ect-[i have my own thoughts on this]
well-no i dont agree with you as this in itself is a very backward way of thinking and i feel its not that much diffrent than saying something like"women should get back in the kitchen"!

[as this in itself is a very backwards way of thinking.......]
appologies Sakura-i should of put-
"this in itself would be a very backwards way of thinking"-
as im not sure if this is what you was saying!

earwicga you have been unnecessarily agressive and I agree with others - that has damaged your argument. - oh and I am not Sakura either before you ask. It is also out of order to refer to people as 'sock puppets'...hey more than one person has similar views so that means they are either a. one person changing their name or b.are just a hand puppet.

I have no desire to engage with you because of your unnecessarily aggressive and offensive stance.