How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

[Molesworth]

I've just been reading this article from the guardian. Young girls are being sold to brothel keepers and made to take steroids so that they look older than they really are.

All my instincts say that the sex industry is just plain wrong. I know some feminists think it's OK (although obviously they wouldn't support practices like those described in the article). Are there any sex industry supporting feminists here? What's the rationale?

Thankye kindly AF

I haven't read more than a few posts in yet but am going to comment by way of also bookmarking the thread for later reading...

The sex industry serves males to a greater degree than it does females but it is not solely a male serving industry. Thus, even on that basis it is possible to support prostitution and pornography and still be a feminist.

As feminists 'supporting' the industry one might hope that one does so in a way that makes paying for sex less the domain of men - in the majority - by making the concept of sex less about an act which meets men's physical needs and more one which meets women and men's emotional and physical needs equally without judgement.

We still seem to maintain a belief in society, however subconsciously or subtly, that sexual enjoyment for females is a taboo subject. This is why a male student can sleep with half his campus proudly and yet his female counterpart is often judged as 'loose' or whorish by her peers.

Females and males perpetuate sexual inequality on the most basic of levels before one even ventures into the territory of paid for sex.

To not shun prostitution would at least begin to normalise the idea thar women can and do enjoy sex on many levels and not just in the context of monogamous, marital and non-fetishistic relations.

Manda, at the risk of sending certain posters beserk, I wonder if I do know you. If I mentioned 'shark' with reference to 'photographer' would you know what and who I was talking about? If not, don't worry.

Hobbgoblin, yes, quite.
I think it;s also worth pointing out that there are jobs within the sex industry that don't expose you to risk of physical danger and can make a reasonable about of money eg phonesex or text sex - and with phonesex if you are any good at it you can actually set up on your own and keep all the money your lines make.

"If I mentioned 'shark' with reference to 'photographer' would you know what and who I was talking about?"

what's Jacques Cousteau got to do with this?

Ermm... The only bells rung by the shark & photographer reference are the ones whose initials are NR.

But I am known for suddenly standing up two days later and shouting "Oh bugger! I know what that is"

I am very far north if that helps...

Manda: Ok, don't worry - if you were one of the people I thought you might be, you would have known (no idea what NR means).
The rest of you, this is not a reference to arcane sexual practices, but a specific handful of people would know what/who I meant by that.

As we were...

no, you carry on, sgb

it was just getting interesting...

I think mandamumu's use of the initials NR may be referring to the renowned Japanese sex photographer Notan Rsole

Blimey, Claig - a joke? Did it hurt?

not as much as reading some of your posts

tried to read through, ended up a bit goggly eyed, but...

even if MissHoneymoon, is real, which I think s/he most certainly is not - £1,000 a night for sex???? There's no way s/he can speak for any kind of consensus of prostitutes.

Overnight bookings seldom consist of marathon bonking sessions. Usually, a booking starts around 8pm and includes a meal, some show, theatre etc (usually I pray it isn?t a musical as although I am happy to have sex for money, I draw the line at any Andrew Lloyd Webber atrocity!) And since you tend to spend around 14 to 16 hours with the person that equates to a ?relative? low hourly rate for sex work. As it goes £1,000 is a pretty average overnight rate for Central London. My rate is actually in the (upper) middle price segment. I don?t get that many overnight bookings but 2 to 4 hour bookings tend to be more frequent. Often the actual sex does not clock up that much time. Few men match my stamina.

I would suggest for those who cannot reconcile the idea of independent escorts earning a decent wage and being happy to pursue this kind of work to simply google some independent escorts in their area. You will realise there are thousands who form a major and fairly large segment of the sex industry and who are not the victims people want to continue to portray them as. Check out industry sites like SAAFE etc. Better still join up and repeat some of the statements voiced here ? I am sure Amy and the others will love to hear especially from Litany... lol

I agree with what MissHoneyMoon has said. I have googled London escort sites and her prices are higher than some, but are not out of the bounds.

To answer the OP's question - it isn't.

Seeker: Yes it is. Even Dittany says (further up the thread) that while she would think a feminist who supports the sex industry is wrong to do so, it wouldn't make such a person not a feminist.
And I am a feminist who does support many aspects of the sex industry (but not, obviously, the abuse and exploitation of those forced to participate in it against their wishes). I don't need your (or anyone else's) permission to be or define myself as a feminist.

I think to answer the question properly, we first need to agree on the definition of feminist.

i've had a look at saafe. (i hadn't realised it was open forum tbh).

do you think that non-wg would actually be welcomed misshm? i'm just curious - have been burned a little on a tg forum due to the 'bugs under a microscope' analogy - ie tg and admirers allowed and welcomed, but not just interested people attempting to make up their minds about a given issue (tg/ prostitution etc). i tend to find that social researchers are particularly unwelcome unless they can demonstrate their credentials.

that said, i do understand the 'not wanting to put your head above the parapet' mentality - there are obviously deep and valid reasons why certain communities choose to remain hidden. i'm just not so much in favour of hiding - everyone's 'reality' is different and i wonder if by 'hiding' you are helping to perpetuate some of the alternative views? (not trying to accuse - genuinely curious)

Mmmmh, madwomanintheattic (love the name btw lol) I have to confess I was a little facetious when I suggested that dittany should go to SAAFE and preach her principles to them.

Seriously, I would really hope that you are met with courtesy and be welcome on SAAFE. I would recommend reading the advice section first before diving in with questions. I do admit that at times reception can be frosty if people come and post about research projects with stereotypical pre-formed attitudes. In the defence of members there, they get numerous often exploitative media requests and can feel a bit defensive about being studied like bugs under the microscope. The analogy does really ring true.

All I can say I would be happy to try and answer any questions you have as I appreciate any genuine interest for fostering some understanding.

Miss, you didn't say "English wasn't your first language". I could have believed it was your second. YOu said it was your fourth language. I presume you said that to show what an educated prostitute you are, who has nevertheless chosen prostitution.

Look, the reason so few women speak out against prostitution is because they are immediately accused of having a strange, Victorian puritanical view of sex. That is the first accusation. THat is what stopped me personally believing that prostitution was wrong for a long time. The same idea could be said about women who oppose the beauty industry: only women who are not beautiful want to stamp out something that glorifies beauty. Well, both those views are very masculine views and that is seeing the world through male eyes. Women in general are not jealous of other women. Women in general do not have puritanical issues about sex: that is the mother/whore complex created by men, isn't it? So if a woman doesn't agree with prostitution on principle, on the principle that its not good for the buyer or the seller or for society she is deemed as being sexually oppressed . It makes no sense.

WHen I was a student, various circumstances that I don't want to go into now built up and led me to consider the sex industry. Well, stripping to be exact, but its a slippery slope and all that. I didn't in the end, but it was a very fine line.
Looking back I am horrified at my state of mind at the time, at how vulnerable I was in so many different ways and just how young I was. This is anecdotal, but I can very easily see how an educated woman can enter the sex industry. It doesn't make it a choice though. SO many more factors are involved than whether the women herself makes a decision to become a prostitute or whether she is sold. The industry is sick.

And why is no-one talking about the men who deem it okay to pay to use another human being's body??!!??

aren't the women vulnerable to criminal gangs demanding protection money etc.? Or does that not happen?

Oh, bugger - another fascinating thread I've only come across a million posts in. Please keep posting MissHoneyMoon and Mandamumu - I'm interested in what you have to say and, fwiw, find I'm in general agreement with SolidGoldBrass' sentiments on the subject.

BTW, may I beg your indulgence and with the greatest respect to all, please may we keep things civil? This is such an important subject and of course, an emotive one, with very strong views on both (many) sides. None of us are doing the subject (and consequently those affected and involved therein) any service by wasting column inches (and reading time) on throwing insults at each other (though some are v. funny - reespect).

Forgive my 'late entry' post, especially as I've contributed nothing to it so far, but you've all posted some interesting and thought provoking opinions, it'd be a shame to mar the debate with ill-humour.

I remain hard-line. I do not think for one minute that all women working in the sex industry are down-trodden victims. But the vast majority are.

And the existence of the industry perpetuates the inherently misogynist mind-set that prevails in our society. The myth of the 'Happy Hooker" is particularly insidious because it enables men to believe that all sex-workers and, by extension, all women, are happy to be available for sex at all times, and that there is something wrong with women that aren't.

But I am very old, and cut my feminist teeth on Greer, French and Dworkin.