Draft Conversion Practices Bill - Oral Evidence 29/10/27, 12.15pm

[ImNotAsCooperativeAsYouMightWantAWomanToBe]

This will be worth watching on Thursday. It will be on Parliament TV.

(Image incoming)

Autistic teenagers. What do you suggest? Majority of teenagers feeling different?.

DK absolutely don't need people being in fear of prosecution.

Chilling effect on medical professionals - question

Sex Matters talked to 30 therapists, including whistleblowers from the Tavistock. Every one said chilling effect would result from proposed legislation.

And who decides the threshold/definition of "alarm and distress?" There are far too many terms in all this that no one has been able to successfully define. And laws should not be made which govern the undefinable.

Section 28 raised as a legislation with chilling effect. Point is not prosecutions, but effect on behaviour.

I forgot DK is a lawyer. 😂

Very helpful.

Sorry, on question of how harmful conversion practises could be prosecuted, DK says police need to look with more care at offenses that are available - child cruelty would cover 95% of offences proposed under bill.

Sex Matters talked to 30 self-selecting therapists out of the 289,000 therapists in the country. As much as I may agree with it, this is even weaker research than the garbage produced by Galop. Very disappointing research given how important it is that we stop this bill.

DK reminds it's not an equality issue, it's a criminal law bill.

HJ talks about how existing legislation could be tweaked to cover any gaps re actual conversion therapy.

DK knows the legislation inside out here. He's not having any "tweaks" he's very concerned about the potential criminal liability on the medics. HJ backing him up. Look at where these abuses are and deal with them.

It would be good to get more research, however I expect many therapists are very cautious about speaking on this subject, for obvious reasons

DK is great to listen to, clear, knowledgeable and very, coldly, angry.

It's Olivia.

Prevalence: Do you accept there are abusive forms of conversion happening?

LGB: Yes. Homophobia persists.

some legislation required?

LGB: Not sure support legislation, welcome focus on it.

Olivia: Fear bill would criminlaise a parent

DK: Unusual criminal offence, doesn't require yuou intend any harm. Most criminal offences require you want to hurt someone. If a mother says 'I want you to love your body', bill says has to be abusive, taken dcirectly from cotronl/coercive, built on equal relationshisp between adults.

We then have a question from the jury - are the mother's words abusive? Bill contains no definnition of abuse at all. None. There is no definition in criminal law. At all. Mother is at risk, of someone saying that that is abusive. All it takes is one difficult argument. DK talks about family dynamics and friction that does often cause 'distress and alarm'

Mother is wide open to risk of proscecution, lead to arbitrary enforcement, public confusion, etc.

Who is the guy sitting behind Dennis and Helen shaking his head at everything they say?

DK making clear coercive legislation based on relationship between adults. Explains how this proposed legislation can place a concerned mother wide open to risk. HJ adds to this explaining situation of autistic child saying non binary, feeling in flight from her own feminity and mother saying she is a girl. Leaves mother open to prosecution potentially.

HJ talks about a parent trying to help her daughter, gives examlpes of what a mother might say to a child struggling with her identity, but that could get her into the funnel the bill imagines, is it an attempt to change, is it abusive, does the child see it that way, she may try to keep child from certain website, or friends. This is not unusual.

The warning on the parliamentlive website 🙄
"This evidence session may include content that some viewers may find distressing."

HJ - bill makes no distinction at all between adults and children.

HJ talks about how parenting is different from an adult relationship.

HJ - we recognise abusive parents and we have laws for that

Olivia is determined to get the answers she wants to hear.

I think Olivia is not discussing in good faith.

DK and HJ both have referred to the police not understanding existing legislation and how to apply it. DK refers to Child Cruelty legislation. Could be used, also extended to application outside UK.

Bill contains no definnition of abuse at all. None. There is no definition in criminal law. At all.

Ta-da! (But, let's criminalize it anyway, and then work backwards from that point to figure it all out. We'll just make it up as we go along. What could possibly go wrong?)

This is exactly why criminalizing what some people might say because some people might feel bad is such a bad idea.

DK - child cruelty has always had a gap, that if you cause cruelty it has to be in the UK. A one line amendment for that outside the UK would plug a gap.