For which services is separate by "gender" appropriate?

[MyAmpleSheep]

Assuming it to be compliant with all relevant legislation (which is another discussion), which public services make more (or enough) sense to separate by self-defined gender rather than by sex?

We are often told that segregating by sex is permissible but not the only way to split "men" and "women" and that it's proportionate and appropriate to split men-identifiers from women-identifiers in some services in "appropriate circumstances" or some other phrase.

What are those services, and what are the appropriate circumstances?

This is a question about services, so I'm explicitly not referring to what the EA2010 covers under associations. Social groups are not services, and they can already be split or made exclusive in a much wider range of ways; I'm not asking about them. Only about public services. For clarity it's probably best to avoid terminology like "single sex spaces" because it's easy to misunderstand whether a "space" is a service - or an association.

So - which services can appropriately be segregated as women+trans-identifying men (women+ "trans women") and men+trans-identifying women (men + "trans men")?

LOL - so the EA was set up for no reason at all? No one was actually discriminating against anyone (ooops, sorry, against anyone other than trans people, obviously), so to celebrate this total lack of unfair prejudice and discrimination in the UK the Government just thought it would be nice to say so in a law? 😂🙄

I guess this explains why Genderists don't see the problem with their sexist beliefs about what makes "women" different from "men" - they simply don't believe sexism based on - y'know, actual sex - was ever a thing!

We have. You just don't wish to accept that there is a definition because you disagree with it. Which is fine because you could just use the single-sex service and let others who wish to use the single-gender services go about their business. No need for drama!

I'm sorry but transwomen have no idea how vulnerable women can feel. They are men. They cannot share the same experiences. Ever. They have their own. I'd rather a male than someone pretending not to be any day of the week.

If it’s open to women and ‘transwomen’ then it’s not limited. Both female and male members are welcome.

Can you cite any examples?

It's you that seems to be suggesting that you might turn some people away, so you will need to provide examples of who they would be.

I'm assuming that everyone is included and the service is just mixed sex.

Is a raped and murdered trans woman less of a rape and murder victim than a raped and murdered biological woman?

Yes! That’s what I meant. Biologically male or female.

Many Turkish barbers are Muslim so would not touch female customers.

Single-gender groups covers it. I don't need to give you examples but I'm happy to answer any examples you wish to provide.

Then we're agreed!

Possibly some affinity groups based on an interest rather than a characteristic, but only if the intent is to bring together people who think there is such a thing as gender identity that you can feel internally apart from your sex.

It is wildly inappropriate for the state to ban people from a service or even a particular provision of a service based on what they do or don’t feel.

Wow, that's a leap. I did not say that. That is a disgusting to say.

Experiences are different, that's all i said.

I won't say what I really think of that and you or I'll get put on the naughty step.

I'm not sure how your question follows mine, but the answers are:

1. if a single sex service is provided as well as single gender than of course, but that then does rather question what provision is justifiably segregatable by mixed-sex-single-gender AND mixed-gender-single-sex, given that an arguement for each would appear to negate the other, and

2. Society validating sexist beliefs about how "men" and "women" are different in ways that are not related to our bodies and the consequences they bring, but because of some non-corporeal differences of mind, affects all of us in a negative way.

Stonewall has given their definition. You appear to disagree with their definition but haven't suggested an alternative.

Who is providing these single gender services that seem to be identical to mixed sex services and what are the services? It all sounds unnecessarily expensive.

But that’s not because of their ‘gender’, that’s because of specific medication they are taking.

Did you understand my answer?

Am I required to agree or disagree with Stonewall? I'm not entirely sure what Stonewall has to do with anything here. I've given my opinion. Is there another entity you wish to point out that I disagree with? English National Opera? British Gas? Julie's Caff on the M22?

As to your second point - whoever wishes to. There are quite a few organisations that have been forced to stop being single-gender when they would prefer to continue.

I understand that you can't provide any examples.

If a ‘transwoman’ is not a man, which is an adult human male, what is he? He’s certainly not an adult human female?
He’s a man who wants to be seen as a woman. But as the word ‘woman’ means adult human female in law, I’m afraid he can’t be.

If you mean the WI and the Girl Guides, they never were. They were in breach of their charters until it was pointed out.

It's a question. You said: "I'm sorry but transwomen have no idea how vulnerable women can feel. They are men. They cannot share the same experiences. Ever." I'm giving you an extreme example and I'm asking you if you stand by your claim.

So the entire thread is pointless and no-one should have any thoughts that disagree with the law as it currently stands. Good to know.

Where they object, people object to mislabelling.

I believe the question is 'for which services is seperation by gender not sex appropriate?'

What services are you saying would be appropriate for women and men who say they are women and not for men or women who say they are men; or indeed vice versa?