For which services is separate by "gender" appropriate?

[MyAmpleSheep]

Assuming it to be compliant with all relevant legislation (which is another discussion), which public services make more (or enough) sense to separate by self-defined gender rather than by sex?

We are often told that segregating by sex is permissible but not the only way to split "men" and "women" and that it's proportionate and appropriate to split men-identifiers from women-identifiers in some services in "appropriate circumstances" or some other phrase.

What are those services, and what are the appropriate circumstances?

This is a question about services, so I'm explicitly not referring to what the EA2010 covers under associations. Social groups are not services, and they can already be split or made exclusive in a much wider range of ways; I'm not asking about them. Only about public services. For clarity it's probably best to avoid terminology like "single sex spaces" because it's easy to misunderstand whether a "space" is a service - or an association.

So - which services can appropriately be segregated as women+trans-identifying men (women+ "trans women") and men+trans-identifying women (men + "trans men")?

It suggests this is what my thoughts are. Am I allowed to have an opinion or not?

Very few services, groups or clubs need to be segregated at all, in the 21st century most things can be unisex. Changing rooms which are not in individual locked cubicles should be single sex, services for sensitive subjects eg rape survivors should be single sex and hospital wards for vulnerable people should have segregated bays where possible though i realise emergency admissions can mean this isn’t possible. Competitive sports obviously sex segregated. Sex related cancer services obviously are single sex, but I’m struggling to think of anything that should be segregated but sex (chromosomes) don’t matter. Mostly I’m a fan of unisex mostly, so what if it’s a traditionally male or female thing, whoever is interested should be allowed!

Gender. It's literally the thread.

It's still a mixed sex service that is open to anyone, unless they turn people away.

Of course they do, but they are still men or women even if they present otherwise.

Unfortunately having TiMs in a hospital ward, i.e. a mixed sex ward, means that they will be sharing showers and toilets, which most women object to, which means that mixed sex wards, whether the men in a woman's ward are trans identified or not, are unwanted.
Changing rooms - if men are using them then the chance of hidden cameras is quite high and shops don't bother to check for them.

But plenty do - when they are single-gender.

Choirs are sometimes "Female Voice" or "Male Voice".

Female voice choirs often have men involved as conductors or pianists. So are not strictly women only. I presume male voice choirs can have female conductors/ pianists.

If a man can manage the vocal range of Alto, or a woman the vocal range of Tenor... could they strictly be prevented?.

Choirs are obviously not a sevice. Often about more than the singing, since its a sociak benefit as well.

But there's a lot of call for men-only pubs, and B&B's that don't admit black people, or Irish people.

The EA and its predecessors were based on the fact that there is a lot of demand for discriminatory services and people can't be trusted to do the right thing or set up alternatives to cater for demand.

So ... white-only pubs: OK?
No blcks, no Irish B&B's OK?

And I would disagree. Male or female, certainly. But man and woman are gender constructs for me.

So you do have a narrower view of what trans means?

Then the question is who are you turning away because they don't meet your standard for being trans?

I don't think there is much call actually. Can you cite any examples? If there's such call for openly racist businesses then there must be several?

You'll need to provide examples for me to answer that.

As is any service that seperates by gender rather than sex. That's what the OP asked, when is separation by gender appropriate/ needed.

So a man/ trans man (person wishing to be styled as a man) arriving at women's stylist will be turned away because the service doesn't cater to that gender.

Catholic Priests, Cardinals and the Pope exist. They are recognised in language and get their own special honorifics instead of plain old Mr.

This is not the same as them actually being closer to God than anyone else, and no one other than Catholics is expected to treat them as such.

But they still either men or women. It’s really not that complicated.

Any workable definitions of a transperson?

In the limited circumstances where people want single sex services, because they are mixed sex.

We still haven't established what 'single gender' would mean, and how it is different to mixed sex.

I cannot think of any service that isn’t sex specifically segregated that would be better if segregated by an ideological concept.
We don’t separate services according to how someone looks or what toys / activities they prefer. We separate them by other things for justifiable reasons eg age, qualifications, skill levels, sporting ability, health need and so on.

We're living in a misogynistic world where every single one of us has a sexual assault story (often multiple, many of us from before we were adults), and your priority is 'what if a trans guy turned up at the barbers'. Here's your answer: they get a haircut, because hair is not gendered and cash is cash.

My older sons tend to go to the same barber because the woman there knows my middle son's deaf, and lip-reads to get by. She doesn't chat while cutting, and always moves in front of him to ask questions. Both of them like that she's so normal about this, rather than exaggeratedly mouthing words at him. (People can be very weird about difference, you see - it can make them resentful, defensive and very angry.)

I once asked her to cut my trans son's hair, long before he came out, and she hesitated because she didn't have the qualifications or experience to do all styles. When I said I just wanted his split ends trimmed and fringe cut, she was fine with that.

Barbers can set up with minimal training, while hairdressing (which is more complex styles) requires a lot more education and experience. Do I really need to say that cis men often maintain more complex hairstyles than your average pop-up barber can handle, so go to hairdressers instead? And that cis women wanting a quick trim go to barbers?

Anti-trans activism is popular with cis men because it promotes segregation and allows them to pretend that women are usually safe, with places to go which protect them from harm. That's not true in the slightest, but anti-trans panic is promoting it.

Working-class women work at very close quarters with men all day, share public transport with them, are vulnerable to predatory landlords and are far more likely to be sexually assaulted than more privileged women. 'Meeting someone trans' is not even on our radar as a threat. Diversity is not something most working -class women are unfamiliar with.

For example, I've been intimately examined by cis men in emergency departments many times, usually during pregnancy, when no female doctor was available. I always asked for a female chaperone. And I'd far rather have had a trans female doctor treat me, because trans women understand how vulnerable cis women feel in those moments. I'm an abuse survivor and find such moments incredibly difficult.

'What if' scenarios about trans people are no help to us, because we have actual problems.

You wouldn't be expected to use a single-gender service if you didn't wish to. So how would it affect you? You'd surely just use the single-sex service?

No need for ‘cis’ nonsense, Trans. Don’t insult our intelligence.

Male or female, surely? 'Men' and 'women' are gender constructs.

For example, I've been intimately examined by cis men in emergency departments many times, usually during pregnancy, when no female doctor was available.

How on earth did you know what their feelings were about gender?

What do you think?