Taskmaster: if you don’t use ‘correct’ pronouns you’re a philistine…

[Sugarleaf]

…Who’s stuck in the past. To be ‘cool and curious’ you need to use non- biological sex based pronouns. And this is about a ‘certain generation.’ I mean I’m 32 and think it’s bollocks.

plus, as a bonus, ‘if you don’t like me, fine, as long as you use my correct pronouns.’

ffs

At least you are clear that it is an internally experienced and subjective feeling so isn’t at all relevant to the rest of us.

Particularly when we are calling out a man for using a space set aside for women as sex segregated spaces are based on sex not some internal feelings of ‘spectrum’.

I knew you’d get there eventually.

Word to the wise.

You might think telling someone to "look up" a concept you have been basing your entire argument on is a clever way of avoiding having to say something concrete and having it immediately be challenged due to its inherent sexism.

It's not. It just makes you look evasive, unable to make your case, or both.

It’s ok to admit you have no answer.

Oh so there must be a spectrum of pronouns then.

What are they?

Perhaps you shouldn't have derailed it by saying that gendered terms only exist because of "common sexed behaviour".

If you're going to argue that sexed pronouns only exist because of these behaviours you should be able to name the behaviours the pronouns are based on.

It's relevant to this thread about pronouns because according to you, there would be no sexed/gendered pronouns if these behaviours didn't exist.

So what are those behaviours?

They are nowhere near me. Never spoken to them. Don’t know who they are. Not allowed to speak about them?

ETA. Given you’ve said pronouns are based on sexed behaviour, couldn’t I just observe that? What should I be looking for?

That's what you said.

What you actually mean is "woman".

There are no male women.

At least you are clear that it is an internally experienced and subjective feeling so isn’t at all relevant to the rest of us.

All self identification is subjective including basing your identity on sex instead of gender. The traits that defines ones self are a values belief based choice not an objective truth. That objective facts exist that people use to define themselves isn't the same as choosing to centre or define their identity by them.

Use their name then. Its really not that hard.

You know what sex stereotypes are surely being gender critical so don't come at me with trolling like you don't.

My reality is that I am an embodied female. This will impact my life regardless of how I may or may not identify. I need language to express this clearly, and sometimes I need rights and protections, physical or otherwise, because of it.

This is a reality I share in one way or another with every other female human there is, was or will be, and with no male human now or ever.

On what basis is someone's identity relevent to this?

The purpose of pronouns is to enable one to refer to a third person clearly without using their name.
They are a general part of language function.
They don’t “belong” to individuals.

Um, not indulging trolling isn't an admission of ignorance dear.

Being gender critical means that I reject sex stereotypes. I don't use them to try and determine someone's "gender"

How? If you don’t know their name.
You can still refer to another person without knowing their name.

For example “It was that man over there, he left his bag on the seat”.

How does language function without sex based pronouns?

Lots of things in the world impact our inherent traits. Just because a person is white/black/asian/disabled/ homosexual etc doesn't mean that they centre their identity around that trait.

I think you misunderstand why you are being asked.

People want to know is what sex stereotypes mean to you because you are basing your arguments on them.

Obviously, applying our understanding of sex steroetypes as Gender Critical Feminists in your logic doesn't work, because if one uses our definitions in your logic, your logic ends up defining people by outmoded and limiting stereotypes which I assume (at least I hope) is not what you think you are advocating for.

Therefore, to make sense of your position, we need your definitions not ours.

No offense but you sound like a gametal obsessive needing to know everyone's sex. Just use 'there's a person over there' & describe them if you are unsure.

Exactly.

Which is why someone's "identity" is irrelevent to needs and rights, language and anaysis, concerning the impact of an inherent trait like sex.

And therefore why using the language of sex, including the very-much-originaly-and-for-most-people-still-sex-based words "man" and "woman" to mean anything to do with gender is such a bad idea.

gametal obsessive

They did a fantastic set at Glastonbury 2009

😂Even if you are talking about that person at a distance? You are really suggesting we can’t refer to someone unless we have ascertained their “preferred” pronouns?
What a load of nonsense, it’s not how the English language actually works.

Gender refers to the socially constructed norms, behaviours , roles, and identities that a society considers appropriate for men, women, and non-binary people so yes expectations are sex stereotypes & yes most people both cis & trans enjoy living by them.

I'm not advocating for anything I'm simply explaining what is.

Either use or find out their name if you don't know. It's really not that hard.

A reminder of the question

“Who’s that? I’ve never seen him before”

How could I use the name of someone I don’t know? You suggested pronouns would be based on ‘sexed behaviours’. So, I don’t know his name, what behaviours should I be looking out to determine whether this male is he, she or (particularly pertinent to this thread) they?

All self identification is subjective including basing your identity on sex instead of gender.

But that’s only ’self identification’. There is also the demonstrable reality of our actual sex. That is not subjective.

The traits that defines ones self are a values belief based choice not an objective truth.

Exactly. So the objective truth is that a person born male is a man. The rest of it is just a ‘values based choice’ which is not relevant to sex or sex segregated spaces.