How is this not sexual?

[BMMNonsense]

I was at the British Motor Museum today with family. In among the car and miniature railway enthusiasts (mainly families with kids and older men) was a couple in their forties. Two men. Except one of them was dressed as a "woman". 4 inch stiletto heels, sheer tights, a skirt and matching jacket. He was clearly wearing a fake cleavage, complete with fake collar bones and balloon like fake boobs, which visibly shone in the light. The cleavage reached down past where a bra would sit. It was grotesque, completely and overtly sexualised, in a setting where almost everyone was wearing long-sleeved tops and long trousers. How is this anything other than a man living out his own sexual fantasies? I don't need this kind of thing forced on me and even less so on my kids! Before people start: there was another man there who was wearing female clothes/ accessories too. I have no issue with that. Just keep it out of my face and limit your sexual fantasies to the privacy of your own home.

I think it is really interesting how we have eroded a lot of socially-accepted ideas around what it is right or wrong to do (not just in cross dressing!) This has given carte-blanche to those who are always looking for a way to push (mainly women's) boundaries.

More wierd posts across multiple threads at about the same time. Someone needs to lock up the drinks cabinet and remove the key.

Who are you referring to? I myself NCed for this thread and haven't posted elsewhere today anyway.

The problem is that what is socially right or wrong rather varies depending on who you're asking. There are those who think women shouldn't show skin in public, for example, or that gay people are unacceptable, or that the age of consent should be 14, or 21, or irrelevant as long as you're married because sex is only moral in marriage.

And as I'm sure we all know it is almost always women who suffer first and worst when it comes to restrictions based upon what is socially "moral".

Oh, not you. Someone else who posted at about 18:30 on this thread and another one.

I think the test of "involves social stereotypes or degrading ideas about other people" is a useful framing here.

There is manifestly a difference between an outfit that challenges society's morals about what is acceptable for the group of people to whom one belongs, and an outfit that depends for its meaning on the cultural stereotypes around somebody else.

Unfortunately for many men, the disgust is part of the fetish. Im sure the OP did not agree to be a part of his sex life.

Possibly, but I reject the idea that "woman" is a culture.

I don't believe men can appropriate women by putting on makeup or "women's clothes" for example, because I reject the idea that makeup and skirts and heels are some sort of cultural lodestone for women. And in this case I also reject the idea that comically large breasts are a marker of women (as someone who is rather more on the streamlined side but no less a woman).

Presumably you've encountered this dodgy individual:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5521856-5521856-biggus-titus-of-oxford-university

There’s such a thing as bloody decorum, and a man dressing like a 1970s comedy tart in public is both misogynistic, unacceptable and yes, I do consider it designed to cause offence.

I am noticing a pattern whereby you object to some reading of specific words in ways that might be understandable were the comment standing alone, but seem very unlikely to be a natural reading in the context of the thread.

What is noticeable is how these misreadings all bend towards the same centre of gravity, like a coin that in theory should fall either way but sometimes always comes up heads. What is at the centre is not something you have said outright so far, but nevertheless, each time there us another misreading, another time that coin comes up heads, the shape of the hidden mass at the centre that the inferences orbit becomes clearer.

However, I also know that this could be simply due to how you think rather than done with intent, so for now I will continue to assume good intent and sinply say plainly that you made an error in your reading.

I did not say women are a "culture". I said there is manifestly a difference between an outfit that challenges society's morals about what is acceptable for the group of people to whom one belongs, and an outfit that depends for its meaning on the cultural stereotypes around somebody else.

In the case of women, of the female body, the stereotypes are those with which the culture in which we live frames us. Not "women as a culture" but "as women are framed by our culture".

Do you understand how those are different things? Would you claim that in our society high heels and breasts are not commonly associated with a sexualised view of women?

That's an awful lot of word salad to say you think I'm trolling. I suggest you either report my posts or stop engaging if that's the case.

No, you did not say women are a culture, but your posts have repeatedly inferred that the man described in the OP and other men like him are appropriating womanhood and compared it to causing offence other cultures. Whether you intended to or not.

Would you claim that in our society high heels and breasts are not commonly associated with a sexualised view of women?

No I wouldn't. I still reject it personally.

I don't think you are trolling. I think you have an agenda.

Nevertheless, I will continue to give you the benefit of the doubt, and point out that while you may be choosing to interpret what I said as treating women as a "culture", what I actually said is "there is manifestly a difference between an outfit that challenges society's morals about what is acceptable for the group of people to whom one belongs, and an outfit that depends for its meaning on the cultural stereotypes around somebody else."

"Cultures" are one type of group of people, sure, but there are plenty of others, like sex, ability, profession, class, interests, sexuality.... when you think I'm referring only to culture it's actually your own framing you are picking up on, not mine.

Do you think that if you personally reject something that is nevertheless still actively believed and in many ways tactly endorsed by others, it is no longer something that can have social power or impact upon you or upon other women?

If your answer is yes, sadly 100 years plus of Feminism prove you wrong. How "wonan" is socially constructed matters to and impacts upon female people regardless of whether you personally reject said constructs or not.

I agree it’s completely inappropriate to dress like this man did and he should not have been allowed access to this event.

But a lot of people seem to change their attitudes when it comes to someone suggesting women is dressed inappropriately. I was told “why are you even looking” when I wrote on this forum about a woman’s outfit (which left nothing to the imagination and had some unfortunate wet patches) in my gym.

This is an interesting clarification. I was talking with my DP about this the other day in the wake of the ‘gym goers dress like whores’ bullshit on socials last week. He said that surely women feel sexual when dressing like that and are looking for sexual attention and I was trying to describe how I don’t believe that’s the case. I think because men assume that wearing revealing women’s clothes feels sexy, that women dressing like that also feel sexy, whereas I’m not sure that’s true.

YANBU about the motivations of these people. I’m 100% convinced it’s AGP in the majority of cases.

It isn't anything to do with social morality, that's just a cover unfortunately that lets men get away with this.

It's very nice to say there should be equal standards for men and women, but there is not equal intent. When a woman dresses in a way that seeks shock or sexual interest from men, men retain all the power in the interaction. She might elicit admiration, annoyance or disgust, but she does not cause fear or sexual harassment to other women in the way that a man who enjoys power over women can gain. Nor is she seeking to do so. She is as extremely unlikely to be getting a sexual kick out of seeing other people's embarassment as she is to be experiencing autogynephilia when seeing herself in front of a mirror.

Plenty of men by their own words do this explicitly to enjoy the power imbalance, the humiliation and discomfort of women, and they enjoy the power that says you know what I'm doing, I know what I'm doing, and I love that you have to pretend I'm just innocently doing my thing. Guardian journalist guy just one example.

I just don't think I could get worked up about this, maybe if they tried to use the ladies whilst me and my daughter were in there. How would you feel if a women was dressed in the same way and had huge boobs + would you feel part of of their fetish?

That man was a common or garden AGP.
Let’s call a spade a spade.

It is a form of exhibitionism. Exhibitionism is a sex crime. Sex crimes escalate. Bring back rules.

This is what I think.

Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean that it isn't wrong, offensive and abusive.

Absolutely bang on @Wishesandhorses
i don’t wear make up and sexy clothes myself and I don’t think they define women in any way. But a man dressed like that is expressing his definition of a woman and doing it with extra relish, purposefully to get your attention is an act of aggression. Your discomfort on seeing it is his buzz, exactly like flashing.

society doesn't just run on the basis of 'if it's not illegal, anything goes'.
It's not illegal to barge to the top of the checkout queue in the supermarket …; it's not illegal to leave your bag on the seat beside you on the bus when somebody wants to sit down…

This is exactly it. Society doesn’t just run on laws. If runs on a social code of treating other people decently and expecting that they will treat you decently too.

When enough people set themselves above the rest of us and ignore these reasonable expectations, society starts falling apart. Not in an apocalyptic way. Just becoming harsher and less pleasant in most people’s daily life.

The situation isn’t anything other than a man living out his sexual fantasies, you are quite correct.

There were 2 young 'transwomen' outside a shop the other day and my DD asked me "why do they always dress like THAT?"

Both in tiny skirts, vest tops, knee high socks etc

I explained that its a sexual fetish and that dressing that way makes them feel aroused about themselves and it proves that it is just a fetish. If they dressed like 98% of the women around them they would be in jeans and Tshirt and just look like men.