Backlash against a hugging grandparents consent ad

[IwantToRetire]

(The ad, one of three, is part of a campaign called We-Consent, run by the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre (DRCC).)

Extract only:

A spokesperson for the Department of Justice said the videos were "produced by DRCC at low cost using volunteers and are not part of a government advertising campaign".

Meanwhile, Dr Eoin O'Malley, an associate professor at Dublin City University, said he believes the advert is the latest example of the state overreaching.

"You are seeing people pushing ideas that are beyond mainstream," he said.

O'Malley said that the importance of consent is reasonable to most people, but that the video is too extreme.

"The idea that there needs to be an ad telling grandparents that they shouldn't hug their grandkids, that they should look for permission in advance of that, seems absurd to most normal people.

"The Irish constitution is very clear that the family is the primary unit for teaching children and for raising children, and so to some extent this is kind of going beyond that."

However, the campaign has its defenders too.

Academic Dr Órfhlaith Campbell said it is not an attack on grandparents but instead aimed to highlight the importance of consent.

"The ad is highlighting differences in children's needs and the imp (sic) of consent. It is not campaigning against grandparents. Dear god in heaven!!!" she wrote on X, external.

An account named Danny Boy said it wasn't "discouraging grandparents from hugging children" but was "encouraging children to speak up" if they feel uncomfortable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c83vqn6zwrx0o

I remember this being a very active discussion a few years (decades?) ago so am surprised by this reaction.

Maybe I missed it but I don't recall half the posters saying grandparents shouldn't need consent for a hug. I struggle to recall anyone saying this but correct me if I'm wrong. The whole issue of consent is obvious. People recognise that consent is important and are able to adapt to the level of physical contact that a child wants. Some kids like hugs, some don't. But to assume that grandparents don't know this and don't respect their own grandkids' boundaries is insulting and demeaning to them.

To those saying the government has nothing to do with this ad, they sanctioned the ad. The NGO was paid 1.3 million of taxpayers' money for it. The government have now distanced themselves from the ad after the backlash.

@MarieDeGournay
But I think this misses the point - the ad is not saying 'Don't let Granny hug you because it's a gateway to her wanting to sexually abuse you', it's saying that you have the right to decide when and if you want to have physical contact with anyone.

What about if Granny or Grandpa don’t want to be hugged by a grandchild - is it ok for them to refuse consent?

I'm not a grandparent but I've asked not to be hugged before. So I guess yes... Kids are more enthusiastic and impulsive and well... Kids so I wouldn't expect children to formally ask permission before giving granny a kiss. But it's perfectly fine for a grandparent or anyone to say no kisses please. There might be lots of reasons for this (eg being immunocompromised).

If you click on quote history it gives a nested view of each quote in a thread. To quote from there:

"And yes, you should hug grandma, even if you don't feel like it."

So this isn't something everyone agrees on and it's insulting/demeaning to assume they dont

Half the people who disagree with the advert. Not half the posters. But maybe half is an exaggeration and it's more 60/40.

I think a lot of people are very naive.

That's really what you take from this?

I think it’s a good idea. Many Young children are scolded for not hugging/kissing/sitting on a relatives lap. It’s happened to me growing up and I thought I had to but never wanted to. I have been a victim of sexual abuse from a relative at the age of five. If I had known I could say no then the grooming would have been ineffective. As one small gesture led to the next level, as he slowly pushed the boundary. I never knew I could say no. This in my eyes is worth it to educate children to take power over their autonomy.

Exactly! This ad is happening in the Irish social and political context of the last number of years in which our government tried to remove the word, and concept of 'mother', from our constitution which explicitly grants protections and rights to women on the basis of their motherhood.

Successive Irish governments have been engaged in some sneaky, and some overt, postmodern social engineering within our country in recent years and this ad is an example of one of those strands.

My teenagers and I watched this on RTE news last night. Both kids see nothing wrong with the ad and think everyone has wildly over reacted, has no one ever met a stroppy teenager?!
Poor Dublin Rape Crisis centre has been in the middle of a stupid storm for no reason at all. The Government were stupid to put out a statement on it too.

I felt really uncomfortable after seeing this advert

I totally get where they’re coming from. And asking for consent is the right message to give.

They have somehow mangled it to do it in the most unpleasant way possible! I’m flummoxed anyone thought this was a good idea. There’s like 1 million other ways of doing this.

If the grandparents hadn't hugged the black kid, it would have been an advert about how racist grandparents are.

When people are always looking for any excuse to find fault in others they will always find one.

No, but I was quoting the person I replied to.

Poor Dublin Rape Crisis centre has been in the middle of a stupid storm for no reason at all. The Government were stupid to put out a statement on it too.

@turkeyboots

The advert has now been taken down - do you think it should have been continued to be shown?

I don't see whats wrong with it personally. The outrage from sad grandparents is such performative nonsense. These ads were made based on actual concerns raised by children in relation to consent according to DRCC.

I understand the principle of course

My goddaughter didn’t like hugs when she was little

It’s the way they’ve depicted it, I think. They somehow managed to make the grandparents look like fools. They could’ve just had them blowing a kiss or something? showing them respecting boundaries.

it’s actually a missed opportunity to show how nice it is for everybody when boundaries are respected.

It’s the way they’ve depicted it, I think. They somehow managed to make the grandparents look like fools. They could’ve just had them blowing a kiss or something? showing them respecting boundaries.

I agree with this - there would be better ways of depicting it.
I saw a cousin in her twenties who I hadn’t seen for ages and when I went to kiss her hello she shrank back. I got it at once and won’t do it again.

Another perspective on why this ad has upset so many people In Ireland:

https://x.com/TheFamousArtBR/status/2113347272855416867?s=20

'consent' is a distraction. Giving 'consent' to activities is not the only thing that matters and 'consent' itself is a dubious idea. If a woman knows her lover likes strangling her is she really giving consent to allow him to do it, or is she 'consenting' because otherwise he gets abusive? And 'consent' has also been a Trojan horse for allowing kink and BDSM into people's love life, used to brand normal, loving, enjoyable and non-abusive sex as 'vanilla' i.e. boring. Bad idea.
But grandparents asking if it's okay to give grandkids a hug? This is stupid and anti-family (mind, the whole 'consent' brigade are anti-family anyway, so it is hardly surprising they are bringing up consent to hugs with grandparents).

It’s been made by Dublin Rape Crisis centre and (I think) another domestic violence charity.

These people looked at all the problems facing women and girls and decided grandmothers were important enough to make an ad about?

That blows my mind completely. The lack of judgement. The waste. Extraordinary.

You are just saying what the theory is here.

There are lots of theories, some sound pretty plausible.

That does not in fact mean that they work.

You really need to understand the differernce between an idea about how something might work, and some kind of empirical evidence.

Human beings are complicated and human behaviour is complicated. There are probably ten different ideas that seem reasonable that people might come up with on any one issue.

If you can't show some kind of evidence that some are more true, you come down to competing ideas. And maybe in that case it would make sense to consider that other ideas might also have merit.

The conspiracy bit is over the top. Although - I do think there is a group of people who seem to want to push against traditional family structures. It's made people suspicious I suppose.

Anyway, the problem is not really that we might see a reluctant child and say, of, why not wave instead, or a family member might give them their space.

I think that happens all the time, particularly with younger children. Of course some adults notice these things more and are more sensitive.

However - I think at the same time, especially as kids get a bit older and start school, it is fine and appropriate for parents to start to teach them that there is conventionally appropriate touch, which may include kissing grandma, even if you don't really want to.

And it's also important that they know that is not the same as inappropriate touch.

You might feel that this kind of ad isn't contradicting that, but I think that's how people read it and that's what a lot of people think who support it.

This is another area where just slapping on a consent model doesn't really work. Especially when you are telling them that what is ok simply corresponds to their immediate feelings about what is ok.

I've always been more ' cock up not conspiracy ' in my thinking. There's certainly no harm in telling children they are not obliged to kiss or hug anyone. But this ad was pretty cringe really. I wonder if they gave it a test screening anywhere before it was broadcast? I mean letting members of the public see it , not Media Studies people at Trinity or UCD.

Imagine what the Dublin RCC could do with €1.3m. There again ...did they sign the open letter calling for GC feminists to be banned from politics and the media? They seem to have a lot of time on their hands.

You sound very defensive. I'll ask you again, what kind of empirical evidence are you looking for? Do you want people to do random control trials on Child sexual abuse? You've said nothing to refute the evidence that children who were groomed or abused usually knew the person and there was a gradual crossing of boundaries. A child, or any person, knowing they're entitled to their own personal space and do not have to touch or kiss anyone will absolutely make them safer. I'm very confused why you are riding so hard for children to not be able to enforce boundaries? What's your intention here?

However - I think at the same time, especially as kids get a bit older and start school, it is fine and appropriate for parents to start to teach them that there is conventionally appropriate touch, which may include kissing grandma, even if you don't really want to.

Ah yeah cos this isn't teaching them to have to kiss their boyfriend or husband or anyone else who might insist it's conventionally appropriate 🤮

Appropriate touching is always where both parties are consenting. Always. Whether that's children or adults. Why on earth would you want a child to kiss you because it's 'conventional' and not because they want to?

Especially when you are telling them that what is ok simply corresponds to their immediate feelings about what is ok.

This is basic consent. Your posts are alarming.

it is fine and appropriate for parents to start to teach them that there is conventionally appropriate touch, which may include kissing grandma, even if you don't really want to.

There is a difference between saying it is appropriate to kiss grandma and it’s appropriate ‘even when you don’t want to’.