The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

[MyAmpleSheep]

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

I think he believes it entirely but only when it's about gender identity and transgenderism.

She says she was dismayed because she had to learn about ‘girly’ things. Something she only had to do because her child was female. I don’t think it’s beyond the bounds of possibility that a very young child would detect her mother’s discomfort around her (the child’s) sex. Children seek approval.

Yes, language is not the same as the capacity for language. That’s precisely my point. Human beings have an innate capacity for language, but its development depends on social interaction. The fact that a child raised without exposure to language wouldn’t spontaneously speak Hebrew tells us nothing about whether that capacity is innate. That's the point. Our capacity for language certainly does have a biological basis, although it requires social interaction to be realised,

Similarly, the fact that our understanding of sex and gender develops within a social context doesn’t establish that it is entirely socially determined, or that there are no underlying biological or neurodevelopmental processes involved.

You keep asking how a child could know they’re a boy without observing and interacting with other people. Maybe they couldn’t. But that doesn’t mean their understanding of themselves is simply derived from observing others.

A child may acquire the concepts of ‘boy’ and ‘girl’ through social interaction, while their identification with one category rather than another is shaped by underlying neurocognitive processes that are not reducible to social learning , but come from within.

Three things sprung to mind for me:

1. Saussure, the Swiss linguist. He described language as the pairing of a signifier and a signified. For example, a bicycle - frame, saddle, two wheels, handlebars, pedals. If we say 'bicycle' that's what is signified. The details, such as colour, materials, size, are up for grabs, but fundamentally, unless it has the things on that list, it isn't a bicycle. For that reason, what is given the 'signified' for the word 'girl' or 'boy' will determine whether a child accepts it as a sign for what they are. For example, if they are told that a girl has a willy, then they look at themselves and see a willy, they will think they are a girl (very simplistic and ignoring the fact that each signifier pairs with a signified, so you'd need to establish what had been signified by the word willy, etc). So you can't take the concept of 'girl' and 'boy' as objective terms. They are codified by society and that influences the acceptance and rejection of the terms by individuals.
2. Eyesight. We know that many children are picked up as needing glasses at school. It isn't because they have bad parents. It's because until something makes it clear that there's a problem, the child doesn't know there's a problem. They accept their vision as normal and have nothing to compare it with. Nobody has said that the blobs should be lines, or that they shouldn't be able to see two of something, etc. Young children don't have an innate understanding of their 'difference'.
3. DD1 has LD. In sex ed she was uncomfortable about discussing breasts. She said she didn't want to be a girl. The teacher said 'what do you want to be?' She replied, 'a dog'. The teacher replied 'They have 8 nipples.' DD1 said 'I'll be a girl.' Children sometimes react to discomfort. It doesn't mean that they need to take life altering action. They need to be helped through their discomfort.

@MyAmpleSheep you mentioned that you'd like to understand the prevalence of ASD combined with GD. I think it's been found that girls going through puberty are a big group who think they are trans. ASD makes that whole process harder. Change is hard, and there is comfort in having an objective reason for feeling that your body isn't yours.

Assigned female is misleading, unless she has an undiagnosed DSD. You are either female or male, and this is usually observed before or just after birth. It is extremely likely that there was no uncertainty or mistake about her sex. It appears that she "knew she was a boy" at age 4 but was pushed in different directions by her mother and grandmother, with both of them invested in stereotypes for girls and boys. If that isn't a recipe for gender confusion I don't know what is.

It's possible that the story is clearer than it seems to me – I'm rather tired and should be getting some sleep. But the terminology invented by the trans activists is confusing in itself, and is biased towards promoting a gender identity based vocabulary.

sadly the ICD itself ( as published on the WHO website) in its definition of gender incongruence is actively promoting gender identity vocab https://www.who.int/standards/classifications/frequently-asked-questions/gender-incongruence-and-transgender-health-in-the-icd What is Gender Incongruence?
Gender incongruence of adolescence or adulthood : Gender Incongruence of Adolescence and Adulthood is characterised by a marked and persistent incongruence between an individual´s experienced gender and the assigned sex, which often leads to a desire to ‘transition’, in order to live and be accepted as a person of the experienced gender, through hormonal treatment, surgery or other health care services to make the individual´s body align, as much as desired and to the extent possible, with the experienced gender. The diagnosis cannot be assigned prior the onset of puberty. Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis.
Gender incongruence of childhood : Gender incongruence of childhood is characterised by a marked incongruence between an individual’s experienced/expressed gender and the assigned sex in pre-pubertal children. It includes a strong desire to be a different gender than the assigned sex; a strong dislike on the child’s part of his or her sexual anatomy or anticipated secondary sex characteristics and/or a strong desire for the primary and/or anticipated secondary sex characteristics that match the experienced gender; and make-believe or fantasy play, toys, games, or activities and playmates that are typical of the experienced gender rather than the assigned sex. The incongruence must have persisted for about 2 years. Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis.

I think "trans" is a group of very different things. Children, adolescents, adults - all have different experiences when they say they are "trans". I don't think the changes of adolescence can be in the mind of 4 year olds saying they are the other sex.

It's one of the things I dislike most about the trans cult: that disturbed four year olds are leveraged to get middle aged men in dresses into the WI.

It is pure ignorance to say that women with CAIS are men; it has absolutely nothing to do with "facts"
The placing of "facts" in inverted commas is revealing.

I don't need your recommendation that I educate myself, thank you, Lacksie, I started doing that at a very early age and have never stopped.

Erm...thanks?!

I'm glad you came to that conclusion, because, and I cannot stress this enough, 'transing' isn't a thing. No one does this. Even if possible (it isn't) it woukd bring no one any benefit at all.

Okay, that's just transphobia. The whole thing.

Minorities are not hive minds.

I mean where do you even start. Trans school shooters number between 1 and 5, in comparison to the thousands attributable to cis. Same as cis paedophiles vastly outnumber trans. And you knew absolutely nothing about the real lives of trans children.

Get out more, read more, and learn what individuals are.

Yes to both these posts.

In a recent thread Transparent mentioned that their daughter has felt comfortable enough with herself to wear a skirt again recently. It definitely reads to me as well if real that Transparent's obviously negative views on stereotypically "girly girl" things could have been a factor in her daughter rejecting her sex.

It's a little strange that a girl who is raised in a house with all this supposed acceptance and diversity within the family and people around her, that she went from a very stereotypically girly to rejecting her sex so thoroughly.

If she'd "always been trans" as the TRAs like to say, surely there would have been no "girly girl" phase?

People or either trans or they aren't. Attempting to explain them using cis life experience isn't going to hit the mark.

So if 'cis' people can't possibly hope to understand what it's like to be trans, having never experienced being trans, how can a biological male possibly presume to understand what it's like to be female, having never experienced being female (or vice versa)?

Logically, either both of them can presume to know what it's actually like being something they haven't ever been and will never be, or neither of them can.

Eh? This person is an adult NOW, but was very much not an adult when it all happened, at the behest and leading of adults - now that the damage has been done and presented as normal from a very young age.

Surely you can't truly believe that all abuse and grooming that happens to victims in childhood is suddenly irrelevant and can be dismissed once the victim turns 18, as long as they continue to accept 'their normal' because they were never allowed to know any different as children?

I'm saying that if this person weren't trans but had been groomed as a child by their parents into having harmful , irreversible surgeries that ruined their life, they'd be perfectly able to tell us so.

That would be a lot more reliable than misinterpreting some shit you've read on social media and assuming a wild story about a situation you know nothing about and clearly don't understand.

That would be a lot more reliable than misinterpreting some shit you've read on social media and assuming a wild story about a situation you know nothing about and clearly don't understand

As people are also doing to a poster on this thread btw..

We know about Susie Green's son from what she herself has said. Starting with a BBC documentary about 15 years ago, then her Ted talk and everything else she's made public as the head of Mermaids. It's not just about "misinterpreting some shit you've read on social media and assuming a wild story about a situation you know nothing about and clearly don't understand".

Susie Green herself told us all about her homophobic husband throwing her son's girly toys away. It's all on record although the original BBC documentary hasn't been available for some time.

There's now an attempt to memory hole all the evidence that gender stereotyping and homophobia were the original reasons for diagnosing transsexualism in children, and people were talking about those children being literally"born in the wrong body".

Well I recommend these nonetheless .

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Db682MhtlyY/?srtk=c2hwMnNsdGNueHQ2

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DccK9dIt9nf/?xtok=cGR6ZWF2aGs5aWl6

But you are the one extrapolating from these anecdotes you've read online and making wild assumptions about her child on the basis of them. (just as pps are doing to a poster on this thread).

meanwhile the person in question is an adult; they can tell us about their own experience.

You’re right - it is ‘pure ignorance’ to say that ‘women with CAIS are men’. It’s biologically impossible to be correct with that statement. The incorrect part is the use of the word ‘woman’. The correct statement is ‘men with CAIS are men’.

Oh dear…

He was raised in a family where it would have been hard to be outwardly gay - Green talks about this at length in her infamous Ted talk. She has turned her gay son into a facsimile of a woman via drugs and surgeries and social engineering. She’s an absolute monster.

”Extrapolating from anecdotes” = not fawning or giggling over gender identity-ridden explanations, and seeing things as they really are.

“Oooh, he didn’t want his child to be gay, isn’t that silly! Tee hee hee! He need not have worried, he had a daughter instead!”

= his homophobic behaviour had a deep negative impact on the identity development of a child and everything that followed medically.

And so on.

“So if 'cis' people can't possibly hope to understand what it's like to be trans, having never experienced being trans, how can a biological male possibly presume to understand what it's like to be female, having never experienced being female (or vice versa)?”

This has been ignored now for many a thread.

Apparently, the male person just ‘recognises’ that they are female. It defies logic, which also then requires the future discovery of a hypothetical neurological finding to support it.

In the meantime, I notice some posters are also back speaking on behalf of people with transgender identity as informed voices. And feel most confident in describing exactly what a person with a transgender identity feels or should feel to be genuinely transgender. While admitting they are not transgender themselves.

It is remarkable.

Most adults who have had at best a dysfunctional upbringing, at worst an abusive upbringing, will find it almost impossible to acknowledge this. I’ve seen this time and time again via my work with children and adults with mental health illnesses. Admitting that your parents were abusive to you is incredibly difficult to deal with.
A child who is raised by parents to believe in particular ideologies will believe this things as adults; that’s what coercion looks like. Whether that’s a particular cultish religion or gender identity ideology or critical race theory, it impacts every cell of your being.

It is indeed. The total lack of insight is staggering.