The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

[MyAmpleSheep]

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

I'm deeply concerned about the misunderstandings and misinformation spread on social media - particularly mumsnet

I'm guessing it would be considered unkind of me to ask you how that's working out 😁

I'll try again.

A person's gender identity is simply their recognition/ awareness of self in relation to sex categories "male" "female" "girl" "boy".

You are still stuck in this loop of assuming that when a child says "I'm a girl" - they are arriving at that conclusion by comparing themselves to a set of "meanings" attached to the category "girl". "I am a girl because I wear dresses and girls like dresses", "I am a girl because I like pink and girls like pink." "I am a girl because girl's have a vulva and I have a vulva", and so on.

But there is no evidence that gender identity works like that.

In fact, classic cognitive-developmental theories distinguish children's basic identification with a gender category from their knowledge of the stereotypes and characteristics associated with that category. They propose that developing gender identification itself motivates children to explore what being a boy or girl means socially.

You tell me you don't even have a gender identity! When I point out to you that you do because you recognise/ are aware of your sex, you tell me that's rubbish! That's not a gender identity, you just know you are a woman because you have xx chromosomes and a vagina. But gender ID typically develops before that knowledge.

When I asked my four your old, "how do you know you are a girl?" She wasn't able to articulate any reason, any "meaning" all. She continues to reply simply "because I know that I am".
She doesn't know she has xx chromosomes and that means she's a girl. She didn't say "I'm a girl because I have a vulva", she didn't say "I'm a girl because I wear dresses". So how does she know she's a girl?

You might say it's because I told her she's a girl and that may well be. But the important point is that her identification doesn't appear to depend on consciously comparing herself with a list of characteristics associated with girls. She simply recognises herself as a girl.

And if gender identification were simply a matter of internalising the category assigned to us by others, how do we explain children who have consistently been told they're boys, yet persistently and insistently identify as girls?

Your answer seems to be that they must have learned some beliefs or stereotypes about girls and mistakenly concluded that those characteristics apply to them.

But why must that be the explanation? It's one possible hypothesis, certainly, but you haven't provided evidence that it's the correct one. You can't establish it simply by insisting that no other explanation makes sense to you.

Another possibility is that our capacity to recognise ourselves in relation to sex categories is influenced by underlying neurodevelopmental processes in the brain. These might interact with social learning, which provides the language and concepts through which that recognition becomes possible.

Have to run!!

So in short. The answer to:

When a boy says "I am a girl" how much of the diagnostic pathway is concerned with identifying what that boy believes a girl to be?

Is none of it. At no point does anyone try and determine what the boy means by "I am a girl".

I'm simply here to have a productive conversation

😂 Would it be rude of me to ask how that's going?

I'ts a complete waste of time

So in short. The answer to:

When a boy says "I am a girl" how much of the diagnostic pathway is concerned with identifying what that boy believes a girl to be?

Is none of it. At no point does anyone try and determine what the boy means by "I am a girl".

Well of course you would ask a child that, if you were assessing them for gender dysphoria. You would ask them that because you need to be able to establish whether the child is actually experiencing gender incongruence or if there is something else going on. As a parent, you would also of course ask your child this - again for the same reasons - to try to make sense of what exactly is going on for your child.

But that's a separate point about how we identify whether a particular child actually is gender incongruent.
I was answering a different question about what gender incongruence is and how we understand it.

So you're a clinician who has carried out this sort of assessment and so know that this is part of it?

Yes, absolutely. A clinical assessment of a child presenting with gender incongruence involves exploring their understanding and experience of gender, including what they mean when they say they're a girl or boy, what being a girl or boy means to them, how they came to identify in that way, how that identification has developed over time, and whether it's associated with distress.

NHS England's clinical guidance explicitly requires an in-depth assessment of the child's gender development, experiences and history, taking account of their developmental stage.

See Appendix A, pages 16–17:
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2026/04/nhs-cyp-gender-service-specification-april-2026.pdf

Why didn't you say you were a clinician earlier?

I haven't said I'm a clinician. I don't want to answer personal questions about who I am.

Sorry yes absolutely - was confusing - I mean yes absolutely assessment involves asking these questions.

@Lacksie Your answer seems to be that they must have learned some beliefs or stereotypes about girls and mistakenly concluded that those characteristics apply to them.

No-one is saying that that is the only answer possible. There are many other possibilities - ADHD, autism, sexual trauma, bullying, a future non-heterosexual orientation, family dynamics...
We have to wait for the child to go through puberty to see if the incongruence resolves. Affirmation at an early age is in danger of locking-in the cross-sex identity and preventing a natural resolution.

I presume you are aware that the document you have linked to says "The clinical approach should be mindful that this may be a transient stage. The current evidence base suggests that children who present with gender incongruence at a young age are most likely to desist before puberty, although for a small number the incongruence will persist."

Despite the fact that you previously stated (19/10/2026 15:11), (in answer to "The evidence is that most young people grow out of their dysphoric feelings after puberty.") "No, this "evidence" is outdated and discredited.".

Quite.

I think it's clear that @Lacksie is an activist with some kind of stake in promoting the medicalised treatment of 'trans' children.

We are being deleted on this thread for making those types of suggestions, so I couldn't possibly comment.

Yes the evidence on desistence is outdated and desistence rates are not established.

I agree with this:
The clinical approach should be mindful that this may be a transient stage.

This statement is not sufficiently well supported:

The current evidence base suggests that children who present with gender incongruence at a young age are most likely to desist before puberty

Older studies reported high rates of desistance among children referred to gender clinics, but those studies have significant methodological limitations, including questions about diagnostic criteria, sample selection and how desistance was defined.

More recent longitudinal research involving children who have explicitly identified as transgender has found substantially higher rates of persistence.

The evidence therefore doesn't establish that children who present with gender incongruence at a young age are generally more likely than not to desist before puberty.

Oh dear God.

When I asked my four your old, "how do you know you are a girl?" She wasn't able to articulate any reason, any "meaning" all. She continues to reply simply "because I know that I am".
She doesn't know she has xx chromosomes and that means she's a girl. She didn't say "I'm a girl because I have a vulva", she didn't say "I'm a girl because I wear dresses". So how does she know she's a girl?

I'm guessing, and this is just a hunch, that ever since she was born, people have been saying to her, who's a lovely girl, good girl, what a gorgeous girl, etc!!

I'm getting the message that, if a boy says he is a girl, but is unable to articulate why, then it must be because he has discovered his innate gender identity and so must be affirmed.

Are you saying that the current NHS guidance is wrong then?

I'm saying that particular claim is overstated and not supported by the evidence.

I've just come to this thread and I am interested and would wish to engage productively, but can't scroll back through 26 pages to find where you've addressed how we can determine what meaning a child is attaching to the terms boy or girl. Can you please either link to your original response or restate it for me to save me having to search for it? I promise that I will read it with an open mind and in good faith. Thank you.

Gosh. Have you got some evidence for your claim? Peer-reviewed, statistically significant, unconfounded and from a neutral source?

It's right when it support's Lacksie's position and wrong when it doesn't.

It's guidance you cited to support your claim (I'm not sure it does explicitly btw) and it is very recent. But now it is 'outdated'?