Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The kind of “girl” that a boy who identifies as a girl thinks he is

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 18/10/2026 14:49

How do people who celebrate the transitioning of five year old children know that the kind of girl a boy who identities as a “girl” identifies as is the same kind of girl that a girl who identifies as a “girl” is?

Other than than from what he sees girls doing, how can a boy “know” what being a girl is, to be sure he is one?

is it posited that there is an innate sense of boy:girl that exists outside of the experience of seeing and being the presence of others?

If a child was “raised by wolves”, could they be trans? If that child had a male body and reached the age of 20 never having seen or met or known of the existence of women is it possible for them to grow up with dysphoria? When eventually discovering the other sex would they suddenly recognize “they had been born in the wrong body”?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
NotBadConsidering · 21/10/2026 10:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Unfortunately it’s not just Lacksie. It’s qualified medical professionals who have these children brought to them who, in equally mind-boggling fashion, somehow agree with Lacksie’s attempted explanations.

Then they stick needles in those healthy-bodied children and commit them to a lifetime of unhealthy bodies.

What I think has happened is they decided to do it, then have had to come up with the explanation as to why, rather than the other way around.

And to Lacksie’s credit, Lacksie isn’t anomalous. It’s not like Lacksie has come out with things gender clinicians would disagree with. Bearing in mind we have had gender clinicians talk about spinning onesies and pulling our hair clips. What Lacksie has flooded this thread with is the best they can come up with. Just that sink in: Lacksie’s (of all people!) explanations are as good as any treating gender clinician has ever come up with. Lacksie’s explanations aren’t the exception, they are the rule.

It just happens to be the case that those explanations are outrageous, dangerous, scandalous, incredibly harmful and utterly contemptible. The sooner children are kept away from such people the sooner this scandal will end.

And it is undoubtedly an ongoing scandal.

Zbcdeg · 21/10/2026 10:55

Can you link to the full articles please, I can only access abstracts.

You said - “These papers examine typical patterns of gender development, rather than specifically investigating children with gender incongruence.
They don't explicitly state that, but it's clear from the research questions, methodology and populations studied” @Lacksie - this isn’t how research works, you are catching a theory at one end of the pitch and running with it to the other end.

Datun · 21/10/2026 10:56

Unfortunately it’s not just Lacksie.

Yes, my comment was ambiguous. I meant in this discussion, here.

Fortunately, fewer people are thinking in the way Lacksy thinks.

When it all started, the people who recognised it as largely stereotype driven weren't being heard. Now they are.

StealthTroublemaker · 21/10/2026 10:57

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 10:47

No. They're not the opposite sex. No one is, including you.

What a sophisticated, cogent and well-justified argument. Thank you for sharing.

But it’s the truth. No one can be the opposite sex to their biological sex. However much they wish it and however many drugs they take.

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 11:01

Zbcdeg · 21/10/2026 10:55

Can you link to the full articles please, I can only access abstracts.

You said - “These papers examine typical patterns of gender development, rather than specifically investigating children with gender incongruence.
They don't explicitly state that, but it's clear from the research questions, methodology and populations studied” @Lacksie - this isn’t how research works, you are catching a theory at one end of the pitch and running with it to the other end.

What are you talking about? Of course that's how research works. You establish what a study was designed to investigate by examining its research questions, methodology and sample.

I don't think I can help you further with this unfortunately.

Datun · 21/10/2026 11:02

StealthTroublemaker · 21/10/2026 10:57

But it’s the truth. No one can be the opposite sex to their biological sex. However much they wish it and however many drugs they take.

What Lacksy means is that's not fair, because you keep reducing the argument down to reality, when I'm trying to persuade you to ignore reality.

Zbcdeg · 21/10/2026 11:13

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 11:01

What are you talking about? Of course that's how research works. You establish what a study was designed to investigate by examining its research questions, methodology and sample.

I don't think I can help you further with this unfortunately.

So you can’t give me the actual articles so I can read for myself how they established the parameters of the studies and you expect me to believe you because “it’s clear” to you? Are you a research psychologist - I’m only a layman so I can only interpret them within my own capabilities. Have you read them or just the abstracts?
You have still to answer me what measures researchers in this field use to assess “gender congruent” versus “ non congruent” children other then to give me your own opinion.

LordEmsworthsGirlfriend · 21/10/2026 11:24

Mad Hatter: Would you like a little further help?
Alice: Well, you haven't helped anyone yet, so I can't very well have further help from you.
March Hare: Ah, you mean you can't very well have less.
Mad Hatter: Yes. You can always have more than nothing.

Imdunfer · 21/10/2026 11:28

Lacksie up thread you have compared being gay with being trans as both being conditions that should be affirmed.

Being gay is a testable provable physiological response to same sex sexual attraction.

Affirming a gay child in no way equates to affirming a trans one.

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 11:30

Zbcdeg · 21/10/2026 11:13

So you can’t give me the actual articles so I can read for myself how they established the parameters of the studies and you expect me to believe you because “it’s clear” to you? Are you a research psychologist - I’m only a layman so I can only interpret them within my own capabilities. Have you read them or just the abstracts?
You have still to answer me what measures researchers in this field use to assess “gender congruent” versus “ non congruent” children other then to give me your own opinion.

I can't have a conversation with you because you seem to be speaking a different language.

I sent you the papers.
Yes I have read them.

They don't "measure" or discuss gender incongruence, they are focused on studying a general population of children and exploring how typical gender cognition develops.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/10/2026 11:33

Imdunfer · 21/10/2026 11:28

Lacksie up thread you have compared being gay with being trans as both being conditions that should be affirmed.

Being gay is a testable provable physiological response to same sex sexual attraction.

Affirming a gay child in no way equates to affirming a trans one.

Yes. So much harm done by transactivism hitching a ride on the LGB rights campaign.

Also worth remembering that anyone affirming a 5 year old as gay needs their hard drive checking (I know that's not what you're saying @Imdunfer ). Along with those adults insisting that little children have the agency to make life changing decisions about their sex and that over keen adults should get involved in enabling this.

So many red flags.

Pingponghavoc · 21/10/2026 11:48

The reason parents think their child is trans is because they are told people are born trans.

The reason we are told that people are born trans is because making a civil rights movement around choices is 'problematic'. So are lots of the reasons people identify as trans.

What used to be a innocent thought process for young children has become a diagnosis. A young child saying they are/wanting to be the opposite sex is no more relevant than the same child saying they want to be 7 foot tall, or they are an astronaut/dancer/zoo keeper.

But with the right parents, teachers and environment, the child will become trans, just as they could be encouraged to be astronauts. One big problem is that, unlike professions where talent and opportunity kicks in, there's nothing in the way of the child remaining trans. All they have to do is 'be' trans.

So we have created the missing bit of the jigsaw puzzle - if these middle aged men have always been trans, why no trans children 25 years ago?

The reason is bad parents/teachers/societies- they didnt listen and encourage childen. But now they do.

We still don't have any real diagnosis, everyone has a different explanation or justification about the difference and similarities between sex and gender, but the adult man wearing a padded bra to work now can say he was born this way.

MyAmpleSheep · 21/10/2026 12:15

@Tinyterrier She was born a boy but believed she was a girl as soon as she could understand the difference between the two - so about age 3.

what does a three year old understand about the difference between boys and girls? It’s the question I keep asking but nobody gives me an answer. Three year olds don’t have the same conception of boys and girls as we do. Is it entirely about body parts?

She couldn’t understand why she had a penis, she used to tell her parents there must have been a mistake and god (her family is Catholic too) had mixed up her body parts with a girl and she accidentally got the boy’s penis and there was a boy out there who had accidentally got her vagina! This child had had very little external influence regarding gender stereotypes by this age.

Very little external influence is not no influence; if external influence is involved it was clearly enough.

OP posts:
Zbcdeg · 21/10/2026 12:23

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 11:30

I can't have a conversation with you because you seem to be speaking a different language.

I sent you the papers.
Yes I have read them.

They don't "measure" or discuss gender incongruence, they are focused on studying a general population of children and exploring how typical gender cognition develops.

Edited

Upthread you were complaining that people weren’t engaging with you on a particular “level” . I am engaging with you in discussing the research you are posting as I also find it interesting . You have only given me references….these days unless you have an academic or work account, not all papers can be accessed by the general public…seeing as you have read the actual papers then you may have access you can share.

You have used these papers and others in an effort to back up your theories that so called “gender incongruent” children are a. Identifiable when they are young children b. have a different developmental trajectory to so called “gender congruent” children ,despite there being no recognised definition of these terms.

If you have reached your capacity to be able to back up the points you are making then fair enough, I won’t ask you anything more but you cannot expect anyone to take you seriously when you make claims you cannot substantiate based purely on extrapolation of theories about child development.

I am actually in agreement with you that there is likely to be far more to gender confusion than solely exposure to stereotypes ( probably many on this board will also agree with that statement) . That doesn’t mean there are any ( or will ever be) evidenced based reasons to practise gender affirmation and medical transition.

I have ASD family members and am well aware of the differences and challenges they experience in relating both to the wider world and also internally to their own body, which arise from their neuro-developmental condition. Some ASD people take great joy and comfort from being furries - we don’t then proceed to offer them fur transplants and tail surgery.

If we understand that over 1/3 of Tavistock patients had ASD, 1 in 4 had spent time in care,70% had more than 5 co-morbidities and a high number had experienced sexual abuse, then we need to learn how the impacts of ASD/ being in care/ mental health issues/ sexual trauma etc etc can impact on children’s development and perception of gender .

If we know that very young children can experience genital distress as a result of sexual abuse then for this reason alone we must have services staffed by knowledgeable ( unbiased )clinicians to support those families. Isn’t this all far more rational then proceeding to puberty blockers ,hormones ,surgery and all the harms they can lead to ?

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 12:34

Zbcdeg · 21/10/2026 12:23

Upthread you were complaining that people weren’t engaging with you on a particular “level” . I am engaging with you in discussing the research you are posting as I also find it interesting . You have only given me references….these days unless you have an academic or work account, not all papers can be accessed by the general public…seeing as you have read the actual papers then you may have access you can share.

You have used these papers and others in an effort to back up your theories that so called “gender incongruent” children are a. Identifiable when they are young children b. have a different developmental trajectory to so called “gender congruent” children ,despite there being no recognised definition of these terms.

If you have reached your capacity to be able to back up the points you are making then fair enough, I won’t ask you anything more but you cannot expect anyone to take you seriously when you make claims you cannot substantiate based purely on extrapolation of theories about child development.

I am actually in agreement with you that there is likely to be far more to gender confusion than solely exposure to stereotypes ( probably many on this board will also agree with that statement) . That doesn’t mean there are any ( or will ever be) evidenced based reasons to practise gender affirmation and medical transition.

I have ASD family members and am well aware of the differences and challenges they experience in relating both to the wider world and also internally to their own body, which arise from their neuro-developmental condition. Some ASD people take great joy and comfort from being furries - we don’t then proceed to offer them fur transplants and tail surgery.

If we understand that over 1/3 of Tavistock patients had ASD, 1 in 4 had spent time in care,70% had more than 5 co-morbidities and a high number had experienced sexual abuse, then we need to learn how the impacts of ASD/ being in care/ mental health issues/ sexual trauma etc etc can impact on children’s development and perception of gender .

If we know that very young children can experience genital distress as a result of sexual abuse then for this reason alone we must have services staffed by knowledgeable ( unbiased )clinicians to support those families. Isn’t this all far more rational then proceeding to puberty blockers ,hormones ,surgery and all the harms they can lead to ?

You have used these papers and others in an effort to back up your theories that so called “gender incongruent” children are a. Identifiable when they are young children b. have a different developmental trajectory to so called “gender congruent” children ,despite there being no recognised definition of these terms.

I wasn't using those papers to back up these points at all
"gender incongruent” children are
a. Identifiable when they are young children
b. have a different developmental trajectory to so called “gender congruent” children ,despite there being no recognised definition of these terms.

Points a) and b) aren't addressed in Ruble's papers.

What is addressed in Ruble's papers is something very different. I've described what Ruble's papers address multiple times in the posts above.

That's why I'm struggling to know how to respond to you. We seem to be having a conversation at entirely cross purposes.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 21/10/2026 12:40

@Lacksie What is addressed in Ruble's papers is something very different. I've described what Ruble's papers address multiple times in the posts above.

Ruble has NOT said that the self-identification is PURELY a neuro-cognitive process. She says it is a complex interaction of biological and social factors. She does not rule-in or rule-out a child's identification being influenced by stereotypes or any other social factors. In fact, her research does not seem to focus much on that period at all. She seems to be more interested in what happens after the identitiy has formed.

You are too heavily invested in your need for sex identity to be innate. It has removed your objectivity.

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 12:49

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 21/10/2026 12:40

@Lacksie What is addressed in Ruble's papers is something very different. I've described what Ruble's papers address multiple times in the posts above.

Ruble has NOT said that the self-identification is PURELY a neuro-cognitive process. She says it is a complex interaction of biological and social factors. She does not rule-in or rule-out a child's identification being influenced by stereotypes or any other social factors. In fact, her research does not seem to focus much on that period at all. She seems to be more interested in what happens after the identitiy has formed.

You are too heavily invested in your need for sex identity to be innate. It has removed your objectivity.

You haven't read her papers, you put them into AI, so I'm not sure why you are presuming to school me on them?

I've accurately summarised what these papers say and why it's relevant above. I never claimed they addressed all questions about how children - especially gender incongruent children - come to identify themselves in relation to sex categories. They don't.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 21/10/2026 12:51

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 12:49

You haven't read her papers, you put them into AI, so I'm not sure why you are presuming to school me on them?

I've accurately summarised what these papers say and why it's relevant above. I never claimed they addressed all questions about how children - especially gender incongruent children - come to identify themselves in relation to sex categories. They don't.

I have since read the one @Zbcdeg linked to, after I had me tea. You haven't accurately summarised it.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 21/10/2026 12:52

@Lacksie You have produced NO evidence that external influences have no effect other than to provide the language to name the concepts of 'girl' and 'boy'.

You are desperate to swerve @MyAmpleSheep and @OldCrone 's much repeated question:
If a boy is insisting that he is a girl, what meaning is he attaching to the word "girl"?
You can't know what he means by the statement "I'm a girl" unless you know what he thinks the word "girl" means.
How do we find out what he actually means by the statement "I'm a girl"? Surely this is necessary in order to find out what is actually going on

Datun · 21/10/2026 12:54

You are too heavily invested in your need for sex identity to be innate. It has removed your objectivity.

As are almost all transactivists. It has to be innate, because legitimacy is sought on that basis.

The problem is, people who are actually trans belie it. You only have to look at the trans widows threads on this very board.

Almost to a man, the trans identified men retrofit their childhood to marry up with their current status. Whilst none of the people around them recognise it.

And it still begs the question, so what. So what if there is a condition that leads people to believe they should've been born the opposite sex. They haven't been.

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 12:56

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 21/10/2026 12:52

@Lacksie You have produced NO evidence that external influences have no effect other than to provide the language to name the concepts of 'girl' and 'boy'.

You are desperate to swerve @MyAmpleSheep and @OldCrone 's much repeated question:
If a boy is insisting that he is a girl, what meaning is he attaching to the word "girl"?
You can't know what he means by the statement "I'm a girl" unless you know what he thinks the word "girl" means.
How do we find out what he actually means by the statement "I'm a girl"? Surely this is necessary in order to find out what is actually going on

I haven't swerved the question at all, I've addressed it in detail several times on this thread, and the one that preceded it. I offered to try to explain this again, on the condition that people were genuinely interested in engaging with it and having a productive exchange instead of just dismissing it with comments like - who are you, and you're making things up.

The responses to that post were a goading "so are you going to answer me?" and dismissive "do what you like if you think you have something interesting to say" (I think the latter was you), or along those lines. That told me everything I need to know about your sincerity in having a meaningful, productive exchange.

So what is the point of me taking my time to explain it again? There is none.

ArabellaScott · 21/10/2026 12:56

Some parents who claim trans children also claim their child was the opposite sex in a past life.

ArabellaScott · 21/10/2026 13:00

There's a study here.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19317611.2018.1523266

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 21/10/2026 13:00

Lacksie · 21/10/2026 12:56

I haven't swerved the question at all, I've addressed it in detail several times on this thread, and the one that preceded it. I offered to try to explain this again, on the condition that people were genuinely interested in engaging with it and having a productive exchange instead of just dismissing it with comments like - who are you, and you're making things up.

The responses to that post were a goading "so are you going to answer me?" and dismissive "do what you like if you think you have something interesting to say" (I think the latter was you), or along those lines. That told me everything I need to know about your sincerity in having a meaningful, productive exchange.

So what is the point of me taking my time to explain it again? There is none.

Edited

And that, in itself, IS A MASSIVE SWERVE. If you can answer the question then you would. Your ego would not allow you to let it go unanswered.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 21/10/2026 13:01

As for PPs claiming that there are 'tru-trans' children in families who are so perfect that they couldn't possibly have been influenced by homophobia, or misogyny or misandry or an undiagnosed ASD or sexual abuse - you are naive beyong belief. There a family therapists who work with families FOR YEARS and still never get to the bottom of what is going on.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.