A Man in a dress- how would you feel?

[Wooopdiedoo]

I'm fairly new here and have only read through a couple of posts, but I wanted to ask a question.

How would you feel if a man you knew wanted to wear "Female" (heavy on the quotation marks) clothing?

I'm specifically talking about a male whose only intention is to wear the dress because they like the dress, nothing else — no statement, no 'changing' of pronouns or wanting to be treated or referred to in any particular way, no mockery, no discussion or intention of 'becoming' a woman (again, quote unquote, not saying it's possible).

Would you genuinely be okay with this, say if your husband/friend/ colleague wearing a dress out in public? Would you have any thoughts or feelings about it, and would these affect what you say to them or how you would act?

I'm not sure how I would respond, honestly, and I know that's probably (definitely) due to my internalisation of 'gendered' norms (by that I man sex based). I think I my knee jerk reaction might be to feel inclined that its somehow not right or looks silly, before reminding myself that its just a piece of fabric and if someone likes what they like on their body, thats kindof the end of it.

On the other hand, I definitely wouldn't have the same reaction to seeing women in any clothing, and my response would always be neutral to positive.

It depends how they wore it. If it was in a Brian molko/david Bowie way I’d be fine. If it was a guy with zero previous interest in subversive fashion and had never even owned an Eyeliner suddenly wearing Laura Ashley I’d wonder what was going on.

😂😂😂 and what about women that wear pants is that a fetish? The receptionist at my GP is trans it doesn't bother me how he dresses

So if a man can grow boobs after taking drugs he’s a woman? So in your opinion a woman is anyone with boobs and a certain type of fat distribution? Wow! Misogynistic much?

They possess female sex traits as in bi/multi modal sex & are technically female in that sense. There are two biological sex frameworks: reproductive sex & bi modal sex. So getting back to the accusation that they are males fantasising they are 'women' they aren't.

So you are saying sex is on a spectrum? Ok. So at what specific point does male end and female begin? Are you saying someone can be both male and female at some point?

you have previously argued that gender is linked to sex. You were very forceful on this point. If sex is a spectrum as you are now saying, how can the gender/sex link be mapped and proven?
what female sex traits are there that are not physical? Are we going down the “men are more violent, women are weaker” route?

if as you are now saying sex is on a spectrum, how do we know which sex traits belong to which sex?

Binary sex might give you more security as a concept because its easier to understand but it is ultimately an oversimplification of a complex process.

‘Sex’ comprises multiple traits, with variable distributions. Individuals may possess different combinations of chromosome type, gamete size, hormone level, morphology, and social roles, which do not always align in female- and male-specific. Reliance on strict binary categories of sex fails to accurately capture the diverse and nuanced nature of sex.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10842549/

So if sex is not a binary, how would a male know he is “really a female” , and not just on the male side of the spectrum? Either people can know whether they are male or female, or they can’t? There are only two sexes, male and female we can all agree
you were arguing gender roles were related to sex in other posts. If sex is a spectrum, how can we tell which gender roles belong to males and which belong to females? This argument you are presenting seems to contradict your previous assertions.

That's why self identification is relevant because there is so many variables that produce ambiguous outcomes. That's not to say distinguishing males from females via gametes is defunct. Clearly, for the sake of utility it isn't for example in health care & sports. But if we talking about sex in its entirety & by extension honestly it's a lot more complicated.

Hence the dictionary (Mem Web) gives two meanings because sex in essence is about distinction.

sex
1 of 2
noun
ˈseks

Synonyms of sex
Simple DefinitionA Simple Definition is available from our Learner's Dictionary to help you understand the meaning faster.
1
a
: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures

b
: the sum of the structural, functional, and sometimes behavioural characteristics of organisms that distinguish males and females

Who funded these studies? The plastic surgery industry that profits from people's 'dysphoria' and coincidentally sees 'gendered affirming' surgeries as a major growth industry?

My dude, if these studies were false people wouldn’t be running back for more in droves. The popularity of the industry speaks for satisfaction.

Bit if sex is on a spectrum as you are now claiming, how can we differentiate between the behavioural characteristics of males and females? At what point on this spectrum would a characteristic be designated more male than female? How many characteristics would someone have to have to be designated male or female? What is the name for the sex at the absolute centre of the spectrum?

My chappy blokey bloke, the industry creates the need. Try reading up on capitalism, or even feminism.

I do think it’s funny how sex is now a “spectrum”, but according to this poster gender roles van be classed as male or female….

That's up to the individual to decide. As I said, the complexity of sex implicates the necessity of self identification for social purposes. For legal purposes that is insufficient in many cases where reproductive sex provides more utility.

Its not as if we aren't sophisticated enough as a species where both concepts can't be managed at the same time without conflict. Balancing rights in terms of special exemptions from anti discrimination law provides the vehicle to settle such matters.

Back to women having no individual agency again?

The Patriarchy lives!

That's social constructionism for you. You know the same thing that gender critical feminists claim causes sex stereotypes?

Do you even understand your own ideology?

Yes Thankyou. So again, if sex is on a spectrum, how can we differentiate between male and female characteristics? How many characteristics are needed at each point on this spectrum to move to the next point on the spectrum? You seem to be the expert on this spectrum so I assume you have all these answers and didn’t just pull stuff of Reddit threads….

You’re contradicting your own arguments. Either sex is binary and gender roles are expressed by sex, as you have spent days arguing, or sex is a spectrum and no one can tell at which point a gender role becomes male or female. Which is it?

For the third time, the ambiguity caused by the complexity makes self identification is the only rational way to go because there is no black & white.

I get that its virtually impossible for many people who can't conceptualise grey areas due to cognitive limitations but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to lie about reality.

As I have mentioned on threads before, the misunderstanding on such complex issues is more about cognitive differences than disagreement. Conservatives are an example of a group that have difficulty processing nuance & change. They are more correlated with caution & traditionalism that predisposes them to being against social progress so rationalising away the grey helps.

I wonder why my post was deleted?

Saying that the complexity that arises during the reproductive process creates ambiguity in distinguishing sex (in a minority of cases) doesn't refute that the majority of outcomes create patterns that influence social categorisations.

so you can’t expand on your argument? If self identification is the way to go, you haven’t explained what exactly people would be identifying as? I mean, if sex is on your “spectrum” how would someone know they are identifying as a male or a female? What if they identify as female but have more make characteristics? How do we know if a characteristic is male or female?

the only way your spectrum would work is if we eradicate the two sex classes and just lump everyone as humans with different characteristics. Surely that would also eradicate transpeople as they would have nothing to transition from or to.

“If you believe sex is binary you are a thick conservative” Is that what you mean?

How has the human race survived without everyone self identifying as male or female? In fact, how has mammalian life survived without self-identification? The fact that mammalian life has survived makes me wonder what the point of self-identification is. I’ve never identified as female but ended up giving birth to two children but strangely, my partner never got pregnant despite all the shagging. Was that because he never identified as female? Would he have got pregnant if he had?

I must be a dribbling idiot who can’t grasp the nuances.

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

How individuals understand themselves as their traits fit into social categories that determines their identity is personal & varies because ….we are individuals. That's why self identification is more appropriate. Its not for others to apply their own standards/interpretation on everyone else because they can only be the expert on themselves.

I don't think you understand what you are demanding here which is the negation of others right to their identity. You want to make them to conform to your ideals where those ideals are purely subjective that you have deceived yourself aren't by pointing to a biological paradigm that's overly simplistic.

You’re the one arguing sex is on a spectrum and no one can really know who is male or female. I’m asking how you are going to determine which gender roles belong to which sex (you spent days arguing that gender roles were defined by sex), but now you’re saying they don’t so if a male can say he is female because he adopts female gender roles, at which point does the role become a male role and not a female role? How does he know it is a female gender role if males also adopt that gender role?