A Man in a dress- how would you feel?

[Wooopdiedoo]

I'm fairly new here and have only read through a couple of posts, but I wanted to ask a question.

How would you feel if a man you knew wanted to wear "Female" (heavy on the quotation marks) clothing?

I'm specifically talking about a male whose only intention is to wear the dress because they like the dress, nothing else — no statement, no 'changing' of pronouns or wanting to be treated or referred to in any particular way, no mockery, no discussion or intention of 'becoming' a woman (again, quote unquote, not saying it's possible).

Would you genuinely be okay with this, say if your husband/friend/ colleague wearing a dress out in public? Would you have any thoughts or feelings about it, and would these affect what you say to them or how you would act?

I'm not sure how I would respond, honestly, and I know that's probably (definitely) due to my internalisation of 'gendered' norms (by that I man sex based). I think I my knee jerk reaction might be to feel inclined that its somehow not right or looks silly, before reminding myself that its just a piece of fabric and if someone likes what they like on their body, thats kindof the end of it.

On the other hand, I definitely wouldn't have the same reaction to seeing women in any clothing, and my response would always be neutral to positive.

Yes, just a weak attempt to sneer and smear. Instead of making a rational argument or addressing the questions asked.

It's 'you're all Xtian rightwingers' all over again.

Ok lets recap:

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions, and identities that society considers appropriate for men, women, and gender-diverse people.

Society comes up with these categorisations (stereotypes) based off typical sexed behaviours via pattern recognition.

Individuals asses their individual traits against social standards & this determines their identity. This varies given the complexity of sex AND an individual’s personal (read subjective) interpretation of how their traits fit social standards. Some examples might be most people believe their reproductive traits define their sexed identity while a minority of people believe other traits such as behavioural inclinations define them based on social categorisations of behavioural inclinations.

But if a woman or a man can adopt these gender roles and expressions, how can we tell which roles and expressions belong to men or women? If men start adopting these gender roles roles and expressions “assigned” to women, at what point will those expressions and roles no longer be considered to be assigned to women?

for example., if enough men decide they are going to start wearing dresses at what point does wearing a dress become a expression of the gender of man?
you still haven’t explained how these gender roles abd expressions work on your “spectrum of sex”. At what point do the gender expressions and roles change over from male to female?

If the shoe fits….

The point? Its simply a form of signalling to others identity no different from a religious identity or sexual orientation so others understand how they would like to be understood or treated.

for example., if enough men decide they are going to start wearing dresses at what point does wearing a dress become a expression of the gender of man?

By society? When the pattern becomes typically expressed. In other words the same way stereotypes come into being.

But what if for example some people say wearing a dress is a female role so doing childcare makes them a woman and some say wearing a dress is a male role so wearing a dress makes them a man? How would someone be able to identify as a male or a female if (taking biological sex out of the equation), there are no indicators as to which roles and expressions belong to males or females?

So if somebody signals that they follow a particular religion, I must treat them and behave around them as though I too believe in that religion, which is what a man identifying as a woman wants?

But you also said:

Individuals asses their individual traits against social standards & this determines their identity. This varies given the complexity of sex AND an individual’s personal (read subjective) interpretation of how their traits fit social standards.

Where is the definitive list of societal standards? When do we get to do the comparison? Is it part of GCSEs or something?

What happens if I compare myself to these societal standards and it turns out that I should be identifying as a man? Or is it just another wiffly waffly way of saying, I don't know what...men are women if they say they are?

You're going to have to explain it in words of one syllable as I'm fick, me. 😉

Yeah, I get that. I mean, I know nothing happens in a vacuum. I think I just hadn't really applied that principle that far to this matter. I've resonated with other posters who have said that, in theory, it's just clothing and 'should' be okay (if we lived in a world without influence of or upon things) for them to wear whatever, but in reality it's inextricable from history, patriarchy, and misogyny, etc.— which makes sense.

Feminists work for a society in which gendered roles are not constrictive and non-conforming is not punished.

But we do not live in that society.

A man wearing a dress may be doing it for various reasons. A fairly common reason is because he finds it sexually exciting to play with the power dynamics in gender roles.

As women with plenty of lived experience of men and their inclinations, it is rational and sensible to note that as a potential red flag. Same as many other potential red flags.

Women live in a world where we are constantly aware of risks that arise from males being the larger, stronger sex, and the sex that commits 99% of all sex crime and 80% of all violent crime. I don't think we can really escape this reality, sadly. Given that most women will experience MVAWG at some point in their lives.

I'm so confused.

For over 60 years I sincerely believed I was a woman because of my female biology. After hearing in the 1970's that sex stereotypes should be abolished I decided not to have children, never wear makeup or high heels, I usually wear trousers not skirts and I do loads of 'manly' things like chopping wood, carpentry, shinning up scaffolds to paint the outside of the house ...... etc.
But now after reading Choppingwoodcarryingwater's definitions apparently sex stereotypes are back and they're now on a spectrum.

So should I now call myself a man, have I crossed the centre of the spectrum? How can I find out?.
I need to know so I can tell my husband whether's he's now gay.

Transvestic fetishism is a known paraphilia. Listed in the ICD.

It's supposed to be excluded when assessing someone for 'gender incongruence'.

Bluntly, if someone presents to medics as 'trans', they are supposed to check to see if the person is a cross dresser before making a diagnosis.

https://icd.who.int/browse10/2019/en#F65.1

'Fetishistic transvestism

The wearing of clothes of the opposite sex principally to obtain sexual excitement and to create the appearance of a person of the opposite sex. Fetishistic transvestism is distinguished from transsexual transvestism by its clear association with sexual arousal and the strong desire to remove the clothing once orgasm occurs and sexual arousal declines. It can occur as an earlier phase in the development of transsexualism.'

But the fetish (AGP, as I said) remains a fetish; the adopted and imitative traits are not the sex, merely traits associated with the feminine. The fetish is being male but being sexually aroused by the idea of oneself as female. The femaleness is a fiction, plain and simple, and these fetishists know it perfectly well.

They generally seem to fancy themselves as young females, and try to dress and look a lot younger than they are, with the result that they make themselves absurd: a fifty-year-old man masquerading as a twenty-five-year-old woman is obviously fake, and difficult not to titter at. (A small child when I was younger would quite likely have laughed and pointed and said "look at the funny man!", because back then children had not been brainwashed into accepting obvious lies as truth. The most that would have happened, likely enough, was the child's mother saying "It's rude to point, dear.")

I'm afraid the absurdity of it is often part of the fetish. This is what 'sissification' and humiliation fetishes revolve around.

Oh, right. More mentally confused than I had realised. Poor pathetic little creatures, really, except that they are such a bloody nuisance.

I have to say I don't really care what they get off on, I just wish they would stay out of women's spaces, and faces, while they do whatever it is.

I wear skirts, kilts and dresses, why do l do it, well it's not a fetishist at all. I do it because l like the styles colours etc. I simply enjoy wearing dresses and my wife thinks l look good in them.

You can wear what you like, no one is going to stop you wearing a dress, and other people are free to form their own opinions about you.
All clothes are a form of expression, but you can’t control how people read them.

I was in a restaurant the other day and one of the other diners was pretty much dressed as Bo Peep including bonnet (no shepherds hook though. Unless she left it at reception!). All I could think was WTF. Just so random. If it is a fetish, I don’t want to know about it!

I dread to think what role play was going on there… I can’t see how looking for lost sheep can be made sexy.

Unfortunately, women's discomfort, alarm, and distress is sometimes part of what they get off on.

It was just so weird. She kept the bonnet on all through the meal! And the man she was with was wearing a smart suit and looked totally nondescript.

The indicators of gender categories are whatever that society considers appropriate. They are traditional stereotypical expectations.

So if somebody signals that they follow a particular religion, I must treat them and behave around them as though I too believe in that religion, which is what a man identifying as a woman wants?

No. Respecting peoples choices is not that same as believing them. Its just a way of signalling so they can:

"Request Basic Respect and Dignity: Signaling an identity—such as sharing one's correct name or pronouns—is a direct request for accurate external recognition. For many marginalised groups, such as transgender or nonbinary individuals, having their identity correctly affirmed by others is a vital determinant of mental wellbeing and self-concept clarity.

To Find Safety and Community: Sharing identity markers helps individuals find like-minded groups, peers, and safe spaces. Conversely, when the environment is hostile, people may do the opposite—"masking" or hiding their true identity out of fear of discrimination or a desire for social acceptance.

To Set Boundaries: Explicitly signalling an identity can be a way to preemptively correct assumptions, reduce biases, and prevent others from misidentifying them in social interactions."

But you also said:
Individuals asses their individual traits against social standards & this determines their identity. This varies given the complexity of sex AND an individual’s personal (read subjective) interpretation of how their traits fit social standards.

Where is the definitive list of societal standards? When do we get to do the comparison? Is it part of GCSEs or something?

The indicators of gender categories are whatever that society considers appropriate. They are traditional stereotypical expectations.

What happens if I compare myself to these societal standards and it turns out that I should be identifying as a man? Or is it just another wiffly waffly way of saying, I don't know what...men are women if they say they are?

Self identification is a subjective choice. There's no imperative you categorise your identity to gendered social standards.

And even if some do that does not make them a predator or a threat just like the majority of women who engage in AGP are not.