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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men at David Lloyd, moaning and whining because the spa is female only for 2 measly hours a week

318 replies

Lemieux7 · 15/10/2026 18:55

๐Ÿ™„ sorry about DM link - itโ€™s the only one not behind a paywall. Men on the Facebook group are saying that women should join female only gyms.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16211821/amp/David-Lloyd-sparks-equality-row-excluding-men.html

David Lloyd sparks equality row by excluding men from spa areas

The exclusive gym group has introduced weekly women-only spa sessions in several of its branches due toย what it described as 'significant feedback' from female members.

https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-16211821/amp/David-Lloyd-sparks-equality-row-excluding-men.html

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PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:00

MerryAquaKoala · 19/10/2026 13:54

Can one be black and female?

Can one be white and female?

Can one be any other colour and female?

Can one be black and male?

Can one be white and male?

Can one be any other colour and male?

Can one be male and female?

Do you see a pattern here? Do you think it's relevant?

Just wondered..

I'm sorry but I don't understand the point you are making here. I'll be happy to respond if you can explain. Thank you.

JellySaurus · 19/10/2026 14:05

Do you also feel discriminated against when you cannot use the whole pool during family sessions? Or when a pool, gym or bar is closed to you because someone else has exclusive use of it?

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:08

BackToLurk · 19/10/2026 13:44

It clearly isnโ€™t being dealt with and is endemic. You donโ€™t get it, thatโ€™s fine. Iโ€™m sure youโ€™ll get โ€˜pickedโ€™.

Do you think people who share certain physical characteristics with a perpetrator should be punished for their actions? How about we ban all people with green eyes from the spa because someone with green eyes once assaulted someone?

The vast majority of the men I have encountered at DL are lovely, holding doors open for me, making polite conversation in the spa, just as women do, and so on. That is how my boyfriend behaves. Why wouldn't he? It's completely ridiculous to make these sweeping generalisations about 50% of the population.

Out of interest, do you have male family members? Do they behave like the animals described on this thread, since you believe that what is being described is 'endemic'?

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:10

JellySaurus · 19/10/2026 14:05

Do you also feel discriminated against when you cannot use the whole pool during family sessions? Or when a pool, gym or bar is closed to you because someone else has exclusive use of it?

No. There's no gender discrimination, or any other discrimination in those circumstances. The rules apply equally to everyone.

DrumsPleaseFab · 19/10/2026 14:13

I welcome it but it wonโ€™t last

so nice to have a break from the inconsiderate men, the ones who start arguments and fights, the ones in ankle tags, the ones who shout loudly about forinners and boat people, the ones who are just weirdly aggressive about taking up space and trying to hog the cold plunge pool for 30 minutes to try and impress eachotherโ€ฆ

I stopped going in the evening as it became so unpleasant

so now I can go again at least once a week

not sure why men behaviour has changed so much, are all the gym bros on drugs these days? Roid rage?

DrumsPleaseFab · 19/10/2026 14:17

Last week in the sauna a man laid into me as soon as I walked in: โ€œso! you are a woman! Do you agree about this womenโ€™s time thing? It is outrageous!!! Rah! Why are you smiling, do you think itโ€™s fair? Iโ€™ll tell you what if women were discriminated like this all hell would break loose! ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE! You are a woman! You would not be happy! Why are you not talking to me!โ€

then he left.

then I turned to the other men who had all said nothing and said: โ€œthis is why we need womenโ€™s hoursโ€ they just shrugged

Nlsa · 19/10/2026 14:25

Difficult issue.

If I'd paid for facilities, I'd want to use them at my convenience, within usual opening hours of course. So I would be pissed off to go and not be able to use them if I was a man and it was the women's only time.

But there are unfortunately some men who behave unacceptably and make women very uncomfortable and unsafe using facilities that they have paid for.

Like a lot of things, a total mess with no easy answer.

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 19/10/2026 14:30

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 13:28

Thanks, no, I haven't read up on any of the relevant legislation. Sounds interesting though.

It would have saved everyone a lot of time if you'd admitted that to start with.

Right, let's go with entry level understanding of equality. First of all, achieving equality is far more complex than 'treating everyone the same' because that often leads to indirect discrimination.

Imagine a secondary school where you are allowed five minutes to get from one classroom to another. If you are late for your next lesson, you get a detention and this applies to all children to be equal. Unfortunately, 11 year old Brian is in a self-propelled wheelchair and his geography lesson is on the third floor, right after English on the ground floor, and the lift is on the opposite side of the building from both classrooms. The fastest he can do it, if the other children give way to him and give him priority for the lift is 13 minutes, so he's getting detention every week.

This is based on a real example. Is it fair? No. Is it legal? No. But the adults involved thought it was, because their understanding of fairness and equality had not advanced since they were five years old. Sorry, did that sound snide? It was meant to, don't worry.

In fact, this is actually an example of indirect discrimination against someone with a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010, because the rules (and the thoughtless timetabling) mean that Brian and other children like Brian are being put at disadvantage because they are disabled and cannot travel fast enough to meet the school rules.

Now, let's move on to the legality of specific services. There are nine different protected characteristics: age, race, sex, pregnancy and maternity, gender reassignment, religion or belief, disability, marriage or civil partnership, and sexual orientation. Sometimes providing equal access to services means providing services for people with only that protected characteristic.

First example: you may have noticed that sexual health clinics run men's-only sessions, women's-only sessions and gay/bisexual men's only sessions. This is legal under the Equality Act 2010, because the people who attend these clinics wouldn't necessarily attend an all access drop in clinic. If the NHS refused to provide specialised sessions, when they are aware that multiple sections of the population won't be comfortable with attending a general walk-in clinic service, that amounts to indirect exclusion of those groups from accessing healthcare.

For our second example, we'll return to leisure centres. I doubt you see it at David Lloyd, but at cheaper centres and council-owned centres, they will often have sessions specifically for people with learning disabilities and their carers. Presumably some would expect me to be up in arms that I have a monthly membership, and yet I cannot go swimming for that particular hour and a half in each week. Au contraire!

I am fully aware that I have the entire week to access the pool, and that for those with learning disabilities, it's the only time they can go or the only time their carers feel it's safe to take them. The leisure centre isn't discriminating against me, it's fulfilling its duties under the Equality Act by providing a ringfenced session for learning disabilities.

And now let's go back to David Lloyd. The question here is whether women are attending the mixed-sex sauna sessions in parity with men. I don't know that, but David Lloyd management will know, and they are making their financial decisions accordingly.

If they can see that their current sauna sessions are heavily dominated by male users and they think it's because women are unwilling to attend mixed-sessions , then it makes financial sense, and complies with the Equality Act, to offer female-only sessions to improve inclusion. If they don't, they may in fact be indirectly discriminating against women.

JellySaurus · 19/10/2026 14:37

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:10

No. There's no gender discrimination, or any other discrimination in those circumstances. The rules apply equally to everyone.

But youโ€™ve paid for a service and you are not being allowed to access it at that time. You are being discriminated against because you have no children.

BackToLurk · 19/10/2026 14:39

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:08

Do you think people who share certain physical characteristics with a perpetrator should be punished for their actions? How about we ban all people with green eyes from the spa because someone with green eyes once assaulted someone?

The vast majority of the men I have encountered at DL are lovely, holding doors open for me, making polite conversation in the spa, just as women do, and so on. That is how my boyfriend behaves. Why wouldn't he? It's completely ridiculous to make these sweeping generalisations about 50% of the population.

Out of interest, do you have male family members? Do they behave like the animals described on this thread, since you believe that what is being described is 'endemic'?

Are we all going to pretend that all those women who have talked here and elsewhere about being made to feel uncomfortable by men in saunas etc are lying or misguided or, what was it, 'stealth boasting'?

DL are responding to feedback from women, just because you haven't experienced that behaviour doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And 'not my Nigel' isn't a basis for policy.

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:42

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 19/10/2026 14:30

It would have saved everyone a lot of time if you'd admitted that to start with.

Right, let's go with entry level understanding of equality. First of all, achieving equality is far more complex than 'treating everyone the same' because that often leads to indirect discrimination.

Imagine a secondary school where you are allowed five minutes to get from one classroom to another. If you are late for your next lesson, you get a detention and this applies to all children to be equal. Unfortunately, 11 year old Brian is in a self-propelled wheelchair and his geography lesson is on the third floor, right after English on the ground floor, and the lift is on the opposite side of the building from both classrooms. The fastest he can do it, if the other children give way to him and give him priority for the lift is 13 minutes, so he's getting detention every week.

This is based on a real example. Is it fair? No. Is it legal? No. But the adults involved thought it was, because their understanding of fairness and equality had not advanced since they were five years old. Sorry, did that sound snide? It was meant to, don't worry.

In fact, this is actually an example of indirect discrimination against someone with a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010, because the rules (and the thoughtless timetabling) mean that Brian and other children like Brian are being put at disadvantage because they are disabled and cannot travel fast enough to meet the school rules.

Now, let's move on to the legality of specific services. There are nine different protected characteristics: age, race, sex, pregnancy and maternity, gender reassignment, religion or belief, disability, marriage or civil partnership, and sexual orientation. Sometimes providing equal access to services means providing services for people with only that protected characteristic.

First example: you may have noticed that sexual health clinics run men's-only sessions, women's-only sessions and gay/bisexual men's only sessions. This is legal under the Equality Act 2010, because the people who attend these clinics wouldn't necessarily attend an all access drop in clinic. If the NHS refused to provide specialised sessions, when they are aware that multiple sections of the population won't be comfortable with attending a general walk-in clinic service, that amounts to indirect exclusion of those groups from accessing healthcare.

For our second example, we'll return to leisure centres. I doubt you see it at David Lloyd, but at cheaper centres and council-owned centres, they will often have sessions specifically for people with learning disabilities and their carers. Presumably some would expect me to be up in arms that I have a monthly membership, and yet I cannot go swimming for that particular hour and a half in each week. Au contraire!

I am fully aware that I have the entire week to access the pool, and that for those with learning disabilities, it's the only time they can go or the only time their carers feel it's safe to take them. The leisure centre isn't discriminating against me, it's fulfilling its duties under the Equality Act by providing a ringfenced session for learning disabilities.

And now let's go back to David Lloyd. The question here is whether women are attending the mixed-sex sauna sessions in parity with men. I don't know that, but David Lloyd management will know, and they are making their financial decisions accordingly.

If they can see that their current sauna sessions are heavily dominated by male users and they think it's because women are unwilling to attend mixed-sessions , then it makes financial sense, and complies with the Equality Act, to offer female-only sessions to improve inclusion. If they don't, they may in fact be indirectly discriminating against women.

I have never said I had read any legislation pertaining to this and I donโ€™t intend to, as I am not making legal arguments and they are not relevant to my point. So if youโ€™ve wasted your time going down irrelevant rabbit holes about what is and is not legal, you only have yourself to blame for making assumptions instead of reading what I have posted.

CarbonelKitten · 19/10/2026 14:44

And 'not my Nigel' isn't a basis for policy.

๐Ÿ˜„๐Ÿ˜†๐Ÿ˜€

Flamingpantoufles · 19/10/2026 14:44

I've never been a DL member but I have had memberships at other large gym chains and can 1000% understand why a women-only session would be a good thing. I think offering a 2-hour men's session on another evening would be a fair compromise. If guys choose not to take advantage of it that's up to them but they can't argue they are being discriminated against.

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 19/10/2026 14:48

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:42

I have never said I had read any legislation pertaining to this and I donโ€™t intend to, as I am not making legal arguments and they are not relevant to my point. So if youโ€™ve wasted your time going down irrelevant rabbit holes about what is and is not legal, you only have yourself to blame for making assumptions instead of reading what I have posted.

Indeed, we've all been assuming that you had a much greater understanding of the nuances of what constitutes equality than you do. Thus the wasted time. We should have gone to complete basics earlier.

If you think my posts are "legal rabbit holes", that only shows your unfamiliarity with this topic. So, do you still think it's racist to have swimming sessions specifically aimed at people from ethnic minorities known to have low swimming rates?

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:49

BackToLurk · 19/10/2026 14:39

Are we all going to pretend that all those women who have talked here and elsewhere about being made to feel uncomfortable by men in saunas etc are lying or misguided or, what was it, 'stealth boasting'?

DL are responding to feedback from women, just because you haven't experienced that behaviour doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And 'not my Nigel' isn't a basis for policy.

I donโ€™t know about โ€˜stealth boastingโ€™. You might want to ask the person who posted it about that.

Itโ€™s true that posting personal experience is not necessarily relevant but why do my personal experiences count for less than anyone elseโ€™s?

Ok, letโ€™s take out personal experiences and stick to reasoned argument. I prefer that anyway.

Do you think itโ€™s logical to ban an entire demographic for the bad behaviour of a few people within that demographic? If so, where do you draw the line?

SiegfriedSassoon · 19/10/2026 14:51

Soontobe60 · 15/10/2026 21:33

The thing is, women are also paying for peak hours but are unable to use the spa at all for cultural /religious reasons. Is DL willing to reduce their fees given this issue?

We don't have segregation in Britain, this isn't a Muslim country.

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 19/10/2026 14:59

SiegfriedSassoon · 19/10/2026 14:51

We don't have segregation in Britain, this isn't a Muslim country.

A) Muslim women aren't the only women of faith who want single-sex spas (orthodox Jews, and some Christian sects come to mind).
B) "Religion or belief" is a protected characterististic listed in the Equality Act 2010.

Intentionally refusing to provide single-sex sessions because "this isn't a Muslim country" is evidence that you are trying to force women of faith to choose between their beliefs and accessing leisure facilities. That's cast iron discrimination.

JellySaurus · 19/10/2026 15:00

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 13:07

No.

Why not?

Flamingpantoufles · 19/10/2026 15:00

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:49

I donโ€™t know about โ€˜stealth boastingโ€™. You might want to ask the person who posted it about that.

Itโ€™s true that posting personal experience is not necessarily relevant but why do my personal experiences count for less than anyone elseโ€™s?

Ok, letโ€™s take out personal experiences and stick to reasoned argument. I prefer that anyway.

Do you think itโ€™s logical to ban an entire demographic for the bad behaviour of a few people within that demographic? If so, where do you draw the line?

I don't know how you would define reasoned argument but presumably statistics (if not anecdotal evidence) would be part of that? Say 90% of women surveyed said they felt uncomfortable using the sauna etc alongside men, due to negative interactions with men during mixed use sessions, would that you feel it was logical to introduce a women-only session even though you are in the 10% who does not feel that way?

Wishesandhorses · 19/10/2026 15:02

I suppose we'll see whether a large number of women members who can use mixed sex spaces go 'thank goodness, this is a MUCH nicer session' and use it, making it worth DL's while. Men don't realise how much women are used to putting up with from them, and the impact they have. And I doubt many women will mind there being a men's slot once a week if that's needed for balance.

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 19/10/2026 15:12

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 14:49

I donโ€™t know about โ€˜stealth boastingโ€™. You might want to ask the person who posted it about that.

Itโ€™s true that posting personal experience is not necessarily relevant but why do my personal experiences count for less than anyone elseโ€™s?

Ok, letโ€™s take out personal experiences and stick to reasoned argument. I prefer that anyway.

Do you think itโ€™s logical to ban an entire demographic for the bad behaviour of a few people within that demographic? If so, where do you draw the line?

To term it "banning" seems like hyperbole. There is one 2 hour session that is women only, that they can't attend.

Shall I say that under-16s are banned from David Lloyds because they're not allowed to use the gym by themselves after 7pm on weekdays?

A two-stage induction for 10-15 year olds, after which they can use the gym under adult supervision. Inducted members aged 14-15 can also use the gym by themselves until 7pm (8pm at weekends).

blog.davidlloyd.co.uk/family/keeping-your-kids-happy-at-david-lloyd-clubs-kids-and-teenagers/

DorsetKnobBiscuit · 19/10/2026 15:28

Men are unable to access David Lloyd spa facilities for less than 2% of the club opening times.

The current gender pay gap in the UK is 12.8%.

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 15:33

Flamingpantoufles · 19/10/2026 15:00

I don't know how you would define reasoned argument but presumably statistics (if not anecdotal evidence) would be part of that? Say 90% of women surveyed said they felt uncomfortable using the sauna etc alongside men, due to negative interactions with men during mixed use sessions, would that you feel it was logical to introduce a women-only session even though you are in the 10% who does not feel that way?

The majority wanting something does not necessarily make the thing that they want, acceptable. The majority wanted white rule in South Africa, for years.

I don't have a problem with women having separate facilities, provided that is not at the expense of men. We both pay exactly the same for the spa. The joint facilities must remain that way.

DorsetKnobBiscuit · 19/10/2026 15:34

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 11:01

What are the statistics for sex crimes in David Lloyd clubs?

A crime doesn't have to have been committed for women to be made to feel fearful or uncomfortable. All women and most decent men would completely understand that.

Any statistics would likely to be reliable anyway as over 80% of sexual assaults and rapes in England and Wales are not reported.

PastMidnight · 19/10/2026 15:34

DorsetKnobBiscuit · 19/10/2026 15:28

Men are unable to access David Lloyd spa facilities for less than 2% of the club opening times.

The current gender pay gap in the UK is 12.8%.

Edited

Thursday nights between 6pm and 8pm are peak hours. We pay extra for membership that covers peak hours. For people who can only come in the evening on weekdays, that's 20%, not 2%.