Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

I had to read this twice 😂 Hilarious

Exactly. You're on fire today FWR

Surely you are free to start whatever campaigns and threads and, well, anything you want but what business is it of yours what anyone else is concerned about?

In my opinion the issue is men and 'trans' ideology obscures so very many of them under the guise of 'inclusion. Not that other male behaviour is not relevant but it's all part of the melting pot of male control over females.

Do that are you telling men to go about it?

Feminism is about fighting to protect women (females).
If the causes of the harm to women have anything to do with toxic masculinity, misogyny, patriarchy, or mentally ill men, a feminist could campaign on all those issues in so far as they affect women, for the sake of women.
A feminist won't be campaigning about men's mental illness for the sake of the men.
The results may look similar on the outside, i.e. women campaigning to help mentally ill men (and keep them away from women), but the motivations are different.

I was responding to your assertion that ‘ your (my) biggest issue with this thread is _’ . I was countering this directly . Saying “no my biggest issue (in this thread- wasn’t necesary to restate this given I was directly responding to a comment ) is …’ . you misunderstood, that’s fine, but my ‘insult’ to you was an expression of frustration of people not comprehending things that are written and jumping to put words in that aren’t there, which has happened multiple times now .

I’ve also been told how snare and insult is perfectly fine on here

An anorexic feels like they are fat when they aren't. We don't give them diet and exercise plans we give them the psychiatric help they need.
When men say they feel like a woman they are just as wrong as the anorexic person and should get the help they need to stop the delusional thinking that has led to that feeling not helped to live the lie that they really are a woman

And we don't endorse the sexist idea that there is a wrong way to be a woman.

Yes.

You haven't been told insult is fine by me, and when did it become morally acceptable to do something you have criticised other people for because you think someone else told you it was OK?

As for the rest, I refer you to @GreyskySexRealistsky post

Back in the mists of time, teachers used to say "if several people aren't understanding you, there's a common denominator. You."

Anyway, to get back to the OP, feminism includes all women regardless of their religion, age, race, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, and whether they are pregnant or married.

It includes Ivanka Trump and Samantha Niblett and the woman behind the appallingly anti semitic Green Party motion and the woman who failed to be executed in Tennessee. It includes women who have any possible view on abortion and women who believe that God made them subservient to men and women who want to be named as the father on their child's birth certificate. The only relevant question is whether they are female.

It just cannot include men, because then it is meaningless.

One of the most lightbulb moments for me was when someone said women are oppressed because of their biology and gender is the way it's done.

It made such perfect sense.

Gender ideology relies on gender to dictate who is male and female. It advocates for it, it cements it in, and it demands you use it.

Not only is it not feminist, it is the means by which sexism is used to oppress women.

Chopping confirms it himself by saying *TW are simply identifying with associations to social category that are group based *

So no, there is no such thing as trans inclusive feminism. The very concept of transgenderism opposes feminism.

Of course.

Are you saying that you giving your opinion was unintentional? You didn’t mean to write that sentence at all?

I dont know if they want the gender because its signals woman to them, therefore they need us to embrace it too.

Or the like the gender and its irrelevant if we want it or not?

I suppose the trans umbrella includes both.

The logic seems to be:

" Diamonds are expected to sparkle, and many of them do. So sparkle means diamond."

The trouble is, what is mere wishful-thinking in front of a mirror is fraud in a jeweller's shop.

The official version? They just want it because it's who they are. The fact it happens to be "woman" stuff is not why they want it, but given they do want it it can be assumed that "who they are" must be a woman.

The truth? They want it because it's "woman's" stuff. They like the idea of being (or being treated as if they are) a "woman" and especially having access to those mysterious places only women are allowed to go, and therefore anything associated with "women" becomes desirable.

With the caveat I do think some of the younger ASD cohort of trans identifying male people fit somewhat into the first model, "I like girl stuff (or I don't like enough boy stuff) so I must really be a girl (or I can't really be a boy so I must really be a girl)". But still a learned/concluded thought pattern rather than a natural expression of some innate woman/girl identity in a male body.

If men could really be women then the opposite is true.

Women and girls could thankfully ‘identify’ out of FGM, gynae problems and cancers, rape as a weapon of war, feeling unsafe in isolated areas or walking at night, lower pay, poorly researched medical and safety issues relating to the female body, religious or cultural restrictions, female sports categories etc.

But no. Because everyone knows you can’t change sex.

You can no more have trans-inclusive feminism (whereby you INCLUDE trans-identified men and EXCLUDE trans-identified women) than you can have meat-inclusive veganism, sex-inclusive virginity, life-inclusive death, God-inclusive atheism or hot-inclusive cold.

It's an oxymoron.

And I don't care about being snarky. It is a risible stance to take (some men are women if they say so, or some men are women some of the time), and SHOULD be laughed at.

It should be taken as seriously as flat earthers or the people who believe they've been anally probed by aliens. It's absurd. It is not a belief worthy of respect in a democratic society.

The emperor IS naked.

I don't hate trans-identified people - in fact, I wish them all health and happiness. I just do not accept that some people are the opposite sex because they 'feel' it.

It really would be good if just once, one of them 'men can totally be women' types explained their thinking and reasoning.

Instead of just calling us thick. If they fail to explain thats on them.

I’m saying that my misuse (which I’ve held my hands up to) of the phrase echo chamber was unintentional. I had only understood it as a platform in which an opinion is predominantly echoed back, which I can evidence that this is what I thought when I stated so in another comment. I didn’t know that it in order for it to be called an echo chamber it had to be the only opinion and others not allowed at all.
feel free to call me ignorant/misinformed/stupid for this, but a liar/ fibber I am not.

I think this one thinks they have by saying they are sociological women.

Which is utter tripe, of course.

No such thing.

I laid out what my reasoning is in my replies, probably around page 12 to 15 or something. Not that you have read it, or like it, but we do explain ourselves on here. You don't like the arguments but it's the same vice versa

IIRC you posited that some people might genuinely feel their body is that of one sex despite in reality being the other.

You have not, I think, explained why this makes them more like or more interchangeable with people whose bodies are the opposite sex to theirs than people who are the same sex as them.

Basically, you haven't explained the leap from feels like to is.

That's a pretty massive leap IMO.

It's like saying the mere existence of religious belief is proof that God exists, and furthmore that means we all have to live just like God says we should whether we personally believe in Him/Her or not.

Surely the number of pages depends on your settings? How would I know what your settings or indeed your reasonings are?

For me this is page 8.

Since I don't think there's an "universal woman experience" or an "universal man experience", I don't see the issue. Pregnancy protection and support should be for everyone who is pregnant, and reproductive freedom is for everyone who can get pregnant. Since most people are cis, it's not incorrect to say that these are primarily women's issues. But they are not universally women's issues.