Can you be a fully trans inclusive feminist?

[Imdunfer]

Inspired from another thread where it was out of place so I brought it here.

Someone seemed to claim that it was possible to be both be a feminist and to be trans inclusive, where by trans inclusive they mean males in women's spaces and shortlists (the attitude to sport wasn't stated).

I don't believe that you can truly be both, do you?

This question has been asked many times, by many people, but never answered. What do I as a woman, have I common with a TW that I don't have in common with any other man?

Its been answered repeatedly. You don't want to listen to the answer. TW are simply identifying with associations to social category that are group based so it doesn't apply to individuals. They didn't make up the social associations to women, society did.

Word soup. What specific things.

word soup = owww my brain hurtz

Social associations to women? You tell me given that you're gender critical & thereby believe that stereotypes are socially constructed. What stereotypes are you all referring to?

You swerved my point. I didn't say there were men's rights and women's rights; I said the mens behaviour removed rights from the women.

I didn't use the word stereotype at all, I just asked what I have in common with TW that I don't with all men. You are yet to answer.

I didn't swerve anything I explained to you since it appears you have no idea how the law works in ensuring equality & fairness.

As far as I can see, Chopping has no answers so has resorted to rudeness. Same as it ever was.

I wish MN talk guidelines would let me elaborate on what I think.

The idea of 'sociology' men and women is just different language for trans identifying people, rather than being a concept men and women experience.

We dont treat women who arent trans as sociologically men, regardless of what they look like or their behaviour. They are women.

You are basically saying there are biological women and men, and trans identifying people. But that doesnt explain why you think the trans identifying people should be treated as the opposite sex.

There isnt a real category of sociological women which included both males and females.

But its gender critical proponents that claim the commonalities are socially constructed stereotypes. So you already know what those are.

But that doesnt explain why you think the trans identifying people should be treated as the opposite sex.

I already explained repeatedly that's dependant on disadvantage in a particular circumstance. Disadvantage is the determining factor for treatment not sex.

When men are disadvantaged they should be treated as if they are women?

Can you specify a situation?

I was going to pose the question in answer to the same post - define 'man', and explain how and why they hold more structural and societal power'?

But actually, your point is really interesting. Some idea that feeling oppressed by men is what makes you a woman?

It’s all such nonsense.

Ive been talking to trans identifying people for years now, all of them make a more compelling argument than choppy. And they mostly say 'because I want to!'

How about when Ted Bundy pretended to have a broken arm? If he’d said he was also a woman, would that make him safe? “Disadvantaged” is in the eye of the beholder, no?

The context is access to public spaces/resources not personal spaces.

Nice dodge 👍

But then, I’m always posting for the lurkers.

I think he's talking about brain mapping. Thing is, the brain maps the body you have not some imaginary body you think you should have. That's how we get phantom limbs in amputees. The map the brain holds of the body is remarkably stable and accurate so it KNOWS that limb should be there. It doesn't get it wrong and scan for body parts that never existed though. The body builds the map in the brain, not the other way around.

But if you are saying TIM are only women in some circumstances…. You are saying they are not women. What do an adult human female and a male claiming to be a woman have uncommon thst make both of them women?

Noooo. Because if you’re waffling about ‘gender roles”, which are socially constructed, then they are not commonalities.

Which gender roles are important? Which ones make you a woman or a man?

Are cooking, sewing and knitting female gender roles? Does that mean that when my husband cooks our evening meal, he is a woman? Is Kaffe Fassett a woman? Or the army officer who was a finalist on the Great British Sewing Bee? Or a tailor in Savile Row or Eton?

Or to take some examples from among my acquaintances, is the woman who does plumbing work in our area a man? Or the one who bashes people with a (blunt) sword in medieval re-enactments? Or the one who is an aircraft mechanic in the RAF or the other one who does the same job in an airline maintenance facility?