British Army

[SnackcidentProne]

Came across this’s post on the FillYourBoots Facebook page.

Please keep me anonymous… I am on the Army Servicewomen’s Network Facebook Group, I submitted my completely valid concern and they aren’t posting this ( what’s the point of the ASWN if I can’t raise concerns affecting army servicewomen ) and it’s not going to get posted as other posts are getting approved.

Here it is.

Posting anonymously because this is a sensitive subject, but I’d genuinely like to hear from other women serving in the Army about their experiences and views.

I’m currently working alongside a transgender woman, and we are expected to use the same female bathroom facilities. This has made me think about what this will mean on exercise and in other environments where accommodation, changing areas and ablutions may also be shared.

What I’m struggling with most is that, as a woman using these facilities, I don’t feel I’ve ever been asked whether I’m comfortable sharing intimate spaces with someone who is biologically male. Recently, during a CDT, the same individual was escorting women to the bathroom, and again there had been no conversation beforehand with the women involved about whether anyone had concerns or required alternative arrangements.

I appreciate this is an extremely sensitive subject and that transgender personnel are entitled to dignity, respect and fair treatment. But I also think there needs to be room to discuss the dignity, privacy and boundaries of female personnel without women automatically being assumed to be prejudiced for raising concerns.

For me, shared toilets, showers, changing facilities and accommodation are particularly private spaces. I would like to understand what the Army’s actual policy is, whether female personnel are supposed to be consulted, and what options exist if somebody is genuinely uncomfortable with the arrangements.

Has anyone else dealt with this while serving, particularly on exercise or in shared accommodation? Were alternative facilities or accommodation offered, and were the women involved actually consulted?

I’m asking because I want to understand where our rights and privacy as female personnel sit within the current policy, and how concerns like these are supposed to be raised appropriately.

Have you or anyone else replied? She needs to be referred to sex matters.

There’s currently over 500 replies I would say the majority are not given any useful advice. I served for over 14 years but several years ago and it was not a situation I ever found myself in. I think the army are a law unto oneself and not sure what I would do in the same situation.

This was the latest update from the individual who is admin of the page:

I’ve run fyb for over 10 years, raised god knows how many issues by service personal anon.

Earlier today I shared a concern by a female soldier regarding private spaces as trans people

Over the last few hours I’ve got so many aggressive inbox messages claiming I’m transphobic for sharing the concern.

I just checked the EQA applies to the army with regard to sex discrimination

as regards the bla bla bla transphobe bla la bla.

hold your ground. “If not you then who?” “if not now then when?”

you were in the army right so put your combat gear on and get support and advice right very well here

The military is one of those areas that gives me hope, while there will be pressure from some seniors to #bekind, I do think the masses speak sense and won’t stand for it and there will be safety in numbers. DH was telling me a while ago about an issue where female soldiers raised concerns about a trans “woman” using female toilets (and frequenting them more than necessary) and the SNCO took no shit, wrote “unisex” on a piece of A4 paper on the men’s toilets and told him to stop using the female ones.

The Army will probably fuck this up in a desperately inept attempt to redeem its reputation from various bullying and dodgy culture allegations in recent years as well as the dark shadow cast over the organisation from the years of dismissing personnel for being gay.

Excuse me??? The trans identified male accompanied you to the toilet during compulsory drug testing? Isn't the person accompanying you supposed to observe you peeing? If you were made to do this I'd be calling the police. That is sexual assault

I also found it very telling how quickly this person managed to get themselves into this voluntary role, my husband has been serving 20 years and has never had to do this duty, this man becomes a woman and muscles his way into a very female role how quickly? Yeah sure, not a fetish or a show of dominance at all.

The men who serve with these men know exactly what these men are, and if the men who know won't even defend their female colleagues from them what hope do we have of any of them being able to defend the country.

Kudos to the SNCO who took no shit, wrote “unisex” on a piece of A4 paper on the men’s toilets and told him to stop using the female ones.
More like this SNCO please.

No one wants that job. Probably very easy to volunteer for.

And look who happily did.

I'd suggest she try ARRSE.

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/forums/

I know that forum covers serious topics, but 😂

Reminds me of the Fast Show

Actually, looks like a service lawyer has offered to help her, from the FB page. So, that looks good.

From JSP 889, which is dated 2019:

ACCOMMODATION

'8.
In common with all other Service personnel, a transgende r person’s entitlement to service accommodation depends on their marital category and their gender (for transgender personnel this means their affirmed gender). In certain circumstances (to preserve the dignity and privacy of the person undergoing transit ion) special arrangements may be made to accommodate particular needs. For example, after discussing the issue with the transgender person, dispensation (with the agreement of the individual concerned) should be given to provide a transgender person with access to a private ablution area, if the accommodation that he/she is living in only contains communal ablution areas. The following paragraphs provide more details on this subject but any queries should be raised with a s ingle Service lawyer or single Se rvice Diversity
and Inclusion policy team.

Single Living Accommodation (SLA) Use of single sex facilities. The determining
issue for allocation of SLA is the gender (the affirmed gender) of the transgender person. Therefore as soon as the transition p rocess begins the person should be provided with accommodation that is appropriate to their affirmed gender. From the date of transition the person should also have use of the toilet and changing room facilities appropriate to their affirmed gender. Und er no circumstances should a transgender person be expected, after transitioning, to use the facilities of their assigned gender. Each case should be individually managed in consultation between the individual, chain of command and
medical officers. Wher e possible, consideration should be given to providing greater privacy in toilets, showers and changing rooms, e.g. by the provision of additional partitions, shower curtains etc as would be afforded to anyone asking for more privacy for personal reasons. Transgender individuals must be given the appropriate support at this sensitive time without the fear of disclosure of their transition.'

It's quite a long and involved document. There are flowcharts and a glossary and everything:

'Transgender
A broad, inclusive term referring to anyone whose personal experience of
gender extends beyond the typical experiences of those of their assigned sex
Transsexual Person.
Somebody physically of one sex with an urge to belong to or resemble the opposite sex.
Transvestite
Somebody who adopts the dress of the opposite sex for a variety of
reasons but has no desire to be accepted as a member of that sex.'

I think it probably needs updating, tbh.

Edit to add link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/recruitment-and-management-of-transgender-personnel-in-the-armed-forces-jsp-889

Wait, sorry, there's an update!

'JSP 889 – Policy for the Management and Recruitment of Transgender Personnel in the Armed Forces was published in 2019, however it is no longer fully reflective of the legal position.
Work is ongoing across Government departments to consider the implications of relevant legal rulings and guidance, and to determine appropriate updates to departmental policies – this includes JSP 889.
The MOD will ensure that changes are legally compliant and carefully developed, including through Equality Impact Assessments and engagement with stakeholders. The MOD remains committed to full compliance with the Equality Act 2010 while maintaining a respectful, supportive, and inclusive workplace.
Until that work is complete, users are advised to consider enquiries on trans issues on a case-by-case basis and seek policy direction from the MOD Diversity and Inclusion Team as required.'

I happen to know some army personnel who are writing the policy. I cannot understand what the problem is and why there are still at it. Something about it needing six people above them to approve What Is Actually The Law fgs.

A colleague who was ex army told me she'd had this issue when an officer told her Steven was now Sophie and would be using the female changing room.

She responded 'Are you f'ing kidding me?' and that was the end of it.

Sadly times moved on and her next experience of trans was a TW destroying her teamsport by insisting on being in the ladies. The club folded rather than confront.

Hopefully times are changing back to sense.

In my day we’d be seriously bollocked if a man was found in the women’s accommodation and vice versa. Bounced, actually.

"The MOD will ensure that changes are legally compliant and carefully developed, including through Equality Impact Assessments and engagement with stakeholders. The MOD remains committed to full compliance with the Equality Act 2010 while maintaining a respectful, supportive, and inclusive workplace."

We can guarantee that the stakeholders won't include women!
The military's capture by transactvism has been a source of embarrassment and shame. These are meant to be the people protecting the country - not enabling predatory men to accompany women to the toilet.

Hi OP thanks for posting this.

It is just shocking. Is the army somehow exempt from UK law?

Have they heard of the EA and the latest ruling.

I dont know enough about the army to advise what to do.

But would suggest that if the woman concerned doesn't get a proper response she goes the the Daily Telegraph who I am sure would write an article about this. And fairly sure, she could remain anonymous.

I know all sorts of institutions got captured, but the world has moved on since then.

Why is the army not aware.

Also to add, how really shameful that the group administrator is now being targetted as well.

Are so many women still stuck in the time warp of thinking their role is to be supportive handmaidens of men.

So dispiriting.

If there is any way of letting the woman concerned know, please tell her many of us support her.

Equality Impact Assessments
engagement with stakeholders
inclusive workplace

The MOD has all the government speak down pat, it's bureaucracy coded for we're not going to do nothing. It's not rocket science, they don't have to re-plan the Normandy invasion, just get the males out of the females changing rooms, toilets, etc.

The army tend to be reactive rather than proactive. They’ll wait and see what happens before making a decision. I can foresee this being an issue if they ever have to deploy on a large scale where it will become confusing with shared accommodation rules or having to do searches of females.