Transitioning or therapy as the treatment for gender dysphoria

[FairHippopotama]

Most trans rights activists will tell you that all who claim to have gender dysphoria are valid in their feelings and the best treatment for gender dysphoria is always transitioning--both socially (e.g. pronouns, clothing) and medically (e.g. hormone therapy, mastectomy). These transitions should be accepted by society.

As far as I can tell, the typical gender-critical view is that while gender dysphoria may be a genuine condition, in all cases therapy or some such is a much preferred treatment to transitioning. Accepting transitioning is seen as requiring society to affirm certain falsehoods and harming women's interests. Am I right about this though? What are your thoughts?

Personally, I think the truth is slightly more moderate: gender dysphoria is a real condition, but should only be treated with transitioning in some cases--transitions which society should accept (but not be forced to do so). It depends on whether the cause is neurological and unchangeable (a sort of brain-body mismatch) or social and able to be treated with therapy (in my opinion).

Apologies if this is worded poorly and doesn't make sense.

So it’s not a real fact. It’s not something you can test and prove. Not everyone conforms to it and it doesn’t hold true in every case. Sex does.

Are you seriously saying socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and norms that a culture assigns to biological sex categories doesn't exist? You realise you are denying what's self evidently in front of your face?

And sociology wouldn't exist as a legitimate academic subject if it couldn't back up its claims with evidence of social behaviours.

@Tottenhamhotflushes do you have kids? Teens? Spend a LOT of time on SM?

Your point?

I guess you don’t want to answer @backformoreofthesame

But I would hedge a bet that what made you snap out of thinking you wanted to be a boy was a combination

1. time
2. your brain developing as you aged from a child/ teen
3. no longer around the bullies

I’ll guess

No you don’t have kids or teens
Yes you do spend an unhealthy amount of time on SM

The former… I am very glad of
the latter… I am not the least bit surprised

So you point is to take a cheap shot because you feel challenged by uncomfortable ideas?

Fair enough.

Why is it a cheap shot to be thankful that you aren’t spouting these views in front of children or teens?

and why is it a cheap shot to presume you spend an unhealthy amount of time on SM.

Do you by chance… live alone and spend a lot of time alone? On SM and thinking about this issue and arguing online about it?

I’ll leave you to it @Tottenhamhotflushes
You are clearly tooling up to spend yet another Sunday arguing about this

I could say exactly the same about you …except I would be correct.

FairHippopotama · Yesterday 13:52
Most trans rights activists will tell you that all who claim to have gender dysphoria are valid in their feelings and the best treatment for gender dysphoria is always transitioning--both socially (e.g. pronouns, clothing) and medically (e.g. hormone therapy, mastectomy). These transitions should be accepted by society.

It is worth mentioning that trans rights activists campaigned and won to make sure that gender dysphoria was not required to be trans.
Hence the push for self ID.

TRAs have worked long and hard to make sure that being trans has no measurable component/attributes and is solely based on how someone feels.

Many trans people never go on hormones, medically transition or have any sort of therapy.

If a man perform female roles, behaviours and expressions, it doesnt demonstrate that man is a woman, it demonstrates that the roles, behaviours and expressions can be performed by both men and women.

If you think about it in terms of categorical associations they are.

Doesn't that depend on which categorical association is applied?

This is an area of discussion where words confuse and try to change perceptions and reality… we need to go back to the basics…

There is no such thing as transition

• a man can’t become a woman
• a woman can’t become a man
• you can butcher someone as much as you like, it changes nothing

There is no such thing as social transition

• a man wearing a skirt is still a man
• your hair cut or facial hair changes nothing
• your name / pronouns / language changes nothing
• calling it gender v. sex changes nothing

All you do is expand the stereotype of what a man / woman is - you don’t become the other even at a gender or social level

Therefore there is no such thing as trans.

• If you can not transition physically and you can not transition socially, you can not transition = you can not be trans

That is reality

• doesn’t matter what wording is used to try and confuse the situation
• it doesn’t matter what emotions are brought in to the conversation
• it doesn’t matter what stories are told about the time a bloke convinced people he was a woman
• it doesn’t matter how personalised it is made and how much we are told this applies to me so you can’t argue
• it doesn’t matter how much we are told that someone’s lived experience is different… not possible

reality is simple, clear, black and white… there is not such thing as transition, there is no such thing as trans…

so what is there…

the reality here is more complex, there are all sorts of things going on:

• genuine mental health issues
• reactions against peer pressure and expectations
• reactions because of peer pressure and expectations
• worries about puberty and change
• concerns about being a woman in a screwed up world
• sexual deviations
• lies
• Men who wish to have power over women
• other dodgy and evil intentions

all of those are genuine and possibly only touch the surface of the complexity of issues at play…

we need society to wake up and deal with these issues… but we don’t do so by believing that anyone can actually transition physically or socially…

so let’s strip it back to basics and truth - treat people who need that treatment with sensitivity and care, but stand strong against the deceptions that try to convince us that it is something it is not, especially when the consequences would be / are esp detrimental to such a large part of society.

By whom?

Both categorical associations exist so if we are talking about self identification it depends on the individual which one they identify more with.

You are going to have to give examples.

If a man performs these female roles, behaviours and expressions, does he still have the categorical associations with women if he doesn't identity as a women.

That is, if he is a nurse on leave to look after his own children and wears make up, is he a women by default?

Do women become category men, depending on their actions, even if they haven't no interest in being seen as men?

It's self identification. So its upto the individual beliefs & values on what a person associates more with.

And sociology wouldn't exist as a legitimate academic subject if it couldn't back up its claims with evidence of social behaviours

<cough, cough>

Kudos to the OP. This is the first new to Mumsnet poster in a while who's arrived promoting the idea of men in women' spaces (er, well, some of them based on some undefinable notions) who's so far nor descended into the usual "sorry you're unable to understand /comprehend my intellectually superior word salad posts".

That's quite an achievement given the track record for new posters. 😁

And of course has enabled some genuinely powerful and intelligent responses.

I believe therapy to start with. I work in FE and have worked with many students over the years with gender dysphoria. Some did transition but others started to and then changed their mind so therapy would definitely be best to start with to ensure they can have support to unravel why they feel like that. I have no issue with trans people but I am starting to feel that some (not all) trans people can be quite extreme in their view, insist they are a “biological woman” and seem quite entitled to how they should be accepted and what rights they should have (often ignoring the very real struggles of other minority groups).

Readers note

The claim was made up thread that satisfaction rates are extremely high for gender related surgery. The academic studies are incomplete in this area but for several reasons it is supposed that the regret rate is much higher than previously claimed. Reasons include

• the oft quoted 1% rate comes from a study that predates the explosion in youth referrals
• studies such as there are tend to be based on a self reported satisfaction from patients soon after surgery Ie no long term follow up undertaken
• a very high proportion of detransitioners do not report their detransition to the gender clinics that treated them

You can read more here https://genspect.substack.com/p/going-forward-and-turning-back-transition?r=1one23&utm_medium=ios

You said originally "that a culture assigns to biological sex categories"

Now you are saying its up to an individual?

How can a culture assign these categories when either sex, of any or no gender perform the same behaviour? There's no pattern for sociologist to study.

That can happen as adults, but I know of children at Junior school ( ages 7-11) who have been told by other children that only boys wear trousers and only girls do dancing. It sounds ridiculous, but these ideas persist amongst children. Is that bullying? Is it enough to make a child question their gender/sex?

Only boys wear trousers? Oh come on… no girl or boy thinks this.