Transitioning or therapy as the treatment for gender dysphoria

[FairHippopotama]

Most trans rights activists will tell you that all who claim to have gender dysphoria are valid in their feelings and the best treatment for gender dysphoria is always transitioning--both socially (e.g. pronouns, clothing) and medically (e.g. hormone therapy, mastectomy). These transitions should be accepted by society.

As far as I can tell, the typical gender-critical view is that while gender dysphoria may be a genuine condition, in all cases therapy or some such is a much preferred treatment to transitioning. Accepting transitioning is seen as requiring society to affirm certain falsehoods and harming women's interests. Am I right about this though? What are your thoughts?

Personally, I think the truth is slightly more moderate: gender dysphoria is a real condition, but should only be treated with transitioning in some cases--transitions which society should accept (but not be forced to do so). It depends on whether the cause is neurological and unchangeable (a sort of brain-body mismatch) or social and able to be treated with therapy (in my opinion).

Apologies if this is worded poorly and doesn't make sense.

But very low dissatisfaction rates don't reflect any serious regret so whatever the costs are outweighed by the benefits.

And do you not think that's a problem in itself - that physical health outcomes have not been treated globally as key? That they have been globally bypassed, neglected, de-prioritised and inadequately researched? Because that's my point.

Patient satisfaction is the weakest outcome measure. Patients can feel "satisfied" with treatments that are horribly bad for them.

And do you not think that's a problem in itself - that physical health outcomes have not been treated globally as key? That they have been globally bypassed, neglected, de-prioritised and inadequately researched? Because that's my point.

No because trade offs matter. As I said, lots of medical treatments have serious costs but they are outweighed by the benefits.

I never said patient satisfaction was the only measure but a key one. Health outcomes matter too as stated.

I do not see why the treatment regime for someone else's undoubted troubles should be to force my language, behaviour and pretend-acceptance for their benefit; any more than I see why the treatment regime for my (equally troubling) poverty should be to force someone else to transfer money from their bank account directly to mine.

A trans-identifying male can be socialised the same as a female if he transitions at a young age

Male and female babies are treated differently from birth.

Over 80% of children who express sustained gender distress or a trans identity as young children grow out of it - if not given affirmative treatments - by the time they finish going through puberty.

If you can't distinguish between 'truly' trans and a passing phase until after puberty, and if babies are socialised as their sex from the moment they are born, how do you make the decision to transition a child young enough to avoid being socialised as the other sex?

Transition all of them and you're wrong at 8 times out of 10. You've caused massive, irreversible medical harm to a child who can't understand the consequences and can't consent 8 times out of 10.

Some people really, really want to have healthy limbs amputated. Either because of an amputation fetish or because of a glitch in the area of the brain that creates a map of their body.

A lot of people who've had this done are very happy with the results. Nevertheless, it's illegal in virtually every country. Because there are some things doctors shouldn't do.

As mentioned twice already upthread, health outcomes matter too.

Now you have pivoted to 'PERSONAL VALUES'. Your argument is wriggling all over the place.

I'll tell you what I find weird. I can understand that a man might be unhappy being male and might, ultimately, after many years of therapy, decide that he must have his penis and testicles/testes removed (though never his prostate, for some reason). What I don't understand is why he doesn't just stop there. Why try to reshape the penis into a hole in roughly the same place where a vulva would be in a woman? Why take hormones to produce shapes that mimic women's breasts on his chest?
Why not just remove the offending male sex organs and be done with it?

Stop being disingenuous and yes go and study a basic biology book. We are adult human females, we have XX chromosomes, we produce large gametes. Like any organism, some things work or sometimes not, that doesn't stop us being women.
Yes we are socialised different but in the vast majority of the world (that is not this western bubble we live in) women are still opressed and discriminated against because of their sex. We still suffer male violence we still have to shut up and put up for the sake of families , children, a roof over our heads, etc..
Feminism is for women, it was born to deal with these issues.
It's not to defend men to keep intimidating us, taking our spaces, mainsplaining to us what it is to be a woman.

Why not just remove the offending male sex organs and be done with it?

PERSONAL VALUES.

You really have a problem with accepting that other people's personal values don't conform to yours don't you? That's why you are avoiding what is the crux of the issue here which is in essence non conformity to your personal opinion.

You don't seem to understand humans are individuals which means we don't all think the same or have the same values AND as such have right to our own values.

Therapy is good for gender dysphoria.

That doesn't really answer my question though does it? Paying for one's sex organs to be removed is one thing. Re-fashioning one's body into a simulacrum of the opposite sex infringes on other people's personal values, which may include not wanting to be deceived about a person's sex, not appreciating the appropriation of 'womanface' (or 'manface'), not wanting to be expected to refer to this person using opposite sex pronouns and not wanting to find this person in their single-sex spaces and on their single-sex sports teams.

You cannot just shout 'personal values' at every objection, because everyone has 'personal values' and sometimes there is a clash. And when it is men's 'personal values' over-riding women's, we should all be paying close attention.

If someone is unhappy with the size of their nose, surgery can make it smaller.

Everyone can agree that the end result is a smaller nose.

If a man is unhappy with his sex, he can have breast implants. But he is still a man, he is still male. We cannot agree he has changed sex.

If a man wants to have breasts, he can. But let's not pretend he's a woman and should be treated as such.

That doesn't really answer my question though does it? Paying for one's sex organs to be removed is one thing. Re-fashioning one's body into a simulacrum of the opposite sex infringes on other people's personal values, which may include not wanting to be deceived about a person's sex, not appreciating the appropriation of 'womanface' (or 'manface'), not wanting to be expected to refer to this person using opposite sex pronouns and not wanting to find this person in their single-sex spaces and on their single-sex sports teams.

You are now pivoting to something completely different to the topic which was the claim that trans people would benefit from therapy which is what my claims about personal values was relevant to.

I never stated another's personal values should dictate yours, just the opposite.

In terms of 'deceiving', people use medical enhancements all the time to 'deceive' others about their 'natural' state of affairs. This is no different.

And just about everyone engages in 'man face' & 'woman face' by the overwhelming choices of gendered appearance…& probably including you.

That you feel you should be entitled to be discriminatory regarding social conventions of politeness doesn't entitle you to be free of the consequences. Bad manners aren't exactly rewarded by the prevailing culture & this is no different.

Single sex spaces are a 'right' that is culturally determined via social negotiation not an automatic one like all other rights. Your subjective personal preferences don't necessarily entitle you to rights.

Single sex spaces are a 'right' that is culturally determined via social negotiation not an automatic one like all other rights. Your subjective personal preferences don't necessarily entitle you to rights.

You might want to rephrase, that Tottenhamhotflushes

It sounded like you support men following girls into female spaces, if they can convince enough people!

I'm quoting a fact that culture impacts laws not my preference. Point in fact, many many countries are trans inclusionary in women's public toilets.

We're a UK based site. The law clearly states that men should not use women's spaces. Its not negotiated based on the men's idea of what makes them a women.

UK laws aren't objective truths or dictation from god about who is & isn't a woman. They come into being from cultural influences which is the point being made here so you don't get to use them as if they are some sort of objective truth. They are simply interpretations based on cultural expectations.

Laws are human-made rules created by societies to maintain order, reflect values, and solve practical problems. They change across borders and eras, functioning as cultural and political agreements rather than fixed physical facts of the universe.

It is a fixed physical fact of the universe, and an objective truth, that humans can’t change sex and men can’t be women though.

Yes sex is a biological fact but gender is a sociological fact that also has implications on the definition of woman. Again its upto cultural values how they structure their society based on these facts. The facts themselves don't decide the structure, values do.

How can gender ever be a fact in the same way sex can? It can’t. Not everyone agrees what gender is or even that they have one. It’s something that has to be taken on faith, or not, as the case may be. You can’t make laws and regulations based on it.

Yes sex is a biological fact but gender is a sociological fact that also has implications on the definition of woman. Again its upto cultural values how they structure their society based on these facts. The facts themselves don't decide the structure, values do.

Its all so sexist - that being a women is based on what someone does, or how they present.

If groups want to organise themselves around gender, at least have decency to use words not associated with sex. Women, girl, female are already taken and are used to safeguard women and children.

Men do not get to 'structure' their way into following girls into single spaces.

Well, there is no therapy. At all.

CAMHS has been repeatedly defunded by successive gvernments and will only take kids who have been repeatedly admitted to A&E. Even then, group therapy is a handout xeroxed from a therapy book.

Anti-trans activism has ensured that trans children are getting no appropriate therapy from gender clinics at all, unless they paid for it or were in the system very, very young.

You aren't trans, and have no idea how vulnerable minority people should treat dysphoria you haven't experienced .

Being trans is real. The need to come out is so overwhelming, it overrides all other considerations - such as how incredibly tough life will be, and the vastly increased likelihood of a violent attack.

Being out greatly eases dysphoria and is very healing.

Dysphoria is only eased by social transition, acceptance and whatever changes the person needs to make. These changes are usually considered over many, many years.

It has been argued by bigots forever that accepting a minority will impact and harm them. It isn't true.

Being polite and respectful to a tiny minority of people who are going through considerable shit and are being attacked is normal behaviour.

Claiming offence because someone exists and you don't like their new name (something remarried women suffered until relatively recently btw) just marks you out as narrow-minded.

It's in the same league as putting audible quotes around "husband" and "wife" when referring to gay people's spouses. Utterly pathetic.

All trans people are different. Some trans guys prefer to keep their breasts, some don't. Lots of trans people prefer not to have bottom surgery. All are unique and get to decide how they live.

If you can't see that the state justifying control over another person's body is a first step to banning abortion and all reproductive rights, then...why the hell not? It's beyond obvious.

Trans people are a very small minority whose existence does not affect yours in the slightest. If you don't like that people's genitals might not match their appearance, then that's your problem, not theirs. They're just thinking about what's for tea or how to solve a problem at work.

The idea you can talk someone out of being trans comes from conversion therapy, which has ruined so many LGBT lives. It is very hard living as an out trans person, and most would not do it unless it meant everything.

Find a new hobby please.

When I was growing up, it wasn't uncommon for white kids to refuse to use an Asian kid's full name, and dictate which name they would be known by instead.

Same as it was common for gay couples and Black people to be hounded out of their homes. Always with the excuse that white cishets didn't want them Around Our Women And Kids, and that they didn't like looking at them.

That's the ugly truth of bigotry. People convince themselves they're righteous in targeting a minority. They dehumanise them by inventing stories about how different they are, how incompatible with the rest of society.

Above all, they justify their own repulsion at difference, at people who look different to them with pseudoscience. When all it is, is bigotry and ignorance.

Being trans is normal. Period.

In sociology gender is treated as a social fact. It represents the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and norms that a culture assigns to biological sex categories which are facts. While biological sex refers to physical and genetic traits, gender is shaped by social interactions, history, and institutions.