Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender Dysphoria, Embodiment, and the Political Creation of the “Trans Child”

109 replies

woollyhatter · 06/08/2026 19:48

Interesting essay which brings together the many different factors that have got us where we are now and nothing to do with far right funding.
https://x.com/knownheretic/status/2085413745820668010?s=46

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · Yesterday 14:07

Baileyonice · Yesterday 06:59

The problem with this 'analysis' is it assumes rights are conferred only by sex when in fact they come about from proportionality/balancing of rights.

Translation: What is & isn't between your legs isn't necessarily a rights trump card.

what's between your legs is kinda important if the question is 'might I get pregnant if I have sex?', or 'I'm bleeding from my genitals. Do I go to hospital or go find a sanitary towel?'

I really wonder how people like you think babies are made. there's no such thing as the 'right' to have a body that can get pregnant

ElenOfTheWays · Yesterday 14:12

TransParentlyAnnoyed · Yesterday 07:13

Lmao, as if I 'm gonna read transphobic bullshit with absolutely no acknowledgement that trans people are individuals.

I have a very small account on there. The fact I've already got them blocked tells me all I need to. I'm not ruining my day by exposing myself to bigotry. I only block hateful people, so they definitely said ignorant, nasty stuff in the past. Why would that have altered?

It suits accounts like that to believe that being trans is an 'ideology' or they'd have to confront their own bigoted behaviour.

It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else how trans children live. They're perfectly normal people with full lives, and treating them as abstract ideas requiring an origin story is tragic as fuck. Trying to profit from the hate which makes trans kid's lives hell with Substacks, books and merch is sickening.

Listen to trans children instead of writing and reading about them. I see so many people here acting like they're ethnographers trying to interpret data, and it's just desperate stuff.

Stop theorising, stop seeking answers and try accepting the humanity of trans people. It'll be tea leaves and secret signs in crystals next.

There are no such people as trans children. Only children being failed or actively abused by the adults around them.

Baileyonice · Today 00:04

sanluca · Yesterday 07:20

Sex based rights are indeed conferred by sex. The clue is in the name. They are not up for debate, open for negotiation or part of a balancing of rights for an individual. Where ever did you get the idea that something written in law could be negated by someone's feelings, especially when that person is not covered by that part of the law?

Lol. More study required.

27
(1)
A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to sex discrimination, by providing a service only to persons of one sex if—
(a)
any of the conditions in sub-paragraphs (2) to (7) is satisfied, and
(b)
the limited provision is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(2)
The condition is that only persons of that sex have need of the service.
(3)
The condition is that—
(a)
the service is also provided jointly for persons of both sexes, and
(b)
the service would be insufficiently effective were it only to be provided jointly.
(4)
The condition is that—
(a)
a joint service for persons of both sexes would be less effective, and
(b)
the extent to which the service is required by persons of each sex makes it not reasonably practicable to provide separate services.
(5)
The condition is that the service is provided at a place which is, or is part of—
(a)
a hospital, or
(b)
another establishment for persons requiring special care, supervision or attention.
(6)
The condition is that—
(a)
the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and
(b)
the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.
(7)
The condition is that—
(a)
there is likely to be physical contact between a person (A) to whom the service is provided and another person (B), and
(b)
B might reasonably object if A were not of the same sex as B.
(8)
This paragraph applies to a person exercising a public function in relation to the provision of a service as it applies to the person providing the service.

Baileyonice · Today 00:08

Helleofabore · Yesterday 07:23

Sure

And why should others treat self identification as being meaningful and as being something that is materially real if it has no basis in material reality only subjective reality?

Like religion or political beliefs?

You walked into that one.

Baileyonice · Today 00:14

MoreDangerousThanAWomanScorned · Yesterday 08:49

There are so many problems with that excerpt you've quoted that I'm not going to argue them through, and instead say that if everything it says is true, and sex differences are innate and fixed, then I still don't see what you think that proves about trans people? To take the most obvious and stark sex difference in that list, propensity to criminality: are you saying that women who commit crimes must actually be transmen and just not know it because they have such a strongly masculine trait? Even if we think that, say, wearing a dress is a very feminine trait, why does it then follow that a man who likes wearing a dress is a woman rather than an unusual man?

Because sexed behaviour is influenced by hormonal distribution & genes so given the sexes share these traits creates the conditions for gender behaviour non conformity.

Baileyonice · Today 01:00

OldCrone · Yesterday 10:18

Average differences aren't stereotypes. Stereotypes are expectations.

Stereotypes are expectations based on average differences. What do you think stereotypes are based on? Do you think someone just picked them at random?

They are simply saying they as an individual have more in common with average behaviours of one group more than the other & as such consider themselves as part of that group for this reason.

The point you are missing is that lots of people have more in common with one group than another. That doesn't make them part of that group.

The point about average differences is that they are averages. They don't apply to everyone.

To take some examples from the link you posted.

On average, young boys prefer male-typical toys like trucks, blocks, and toy soldiers, while young girls prefer dolls and kitchen equipment.

But a boy who likes dolls and kitchen equipment is still a boy, and a girl who likes trucks, blocks and toy soldiers is still a girl.

On average, women have more interest in people than things, which partly explains why occupations like computer science and engineering are dominated by men while the health and social sciences harbour far more women.

But some women go into computer science and engineering. They're still women. Some men go into health and social sciences. They're still men.

And this bit is utter bollocks:

Related to this are observations that men are better than women at “systematising”, defined as “understanding and reasoning about systems, including natural systems like atoms and galaxies, abstract systems like logic and maths, and human-made system like machines and computer programs”. Women, in contrast, are better at “empathising”: putting themselves in other people’s shoes and understanding their feelings and motivations.

You, along with the authors of this article, seem to want to take us back in time to when girls were told that they weren't good at things like maths and they should go back to being pretty little things who should just search for a husband and produce children. And, of course that men should all be macho and not show any emotions or feelings.

Stereotypes are expectations based on average differences. What do you think stereotypes are based on? Do you think someone just picked them at random?

Um, the point is trans people aren't saying all people in grouped sexes act a certain way or expect them to. They are simply saying they have more in common with typical group behaviour. Big difference.

The point you are missing is that lots of people have more in common with one group than another. That doesn't make them part of that group.

It does because group membership is dependent on association. Let's not forget the group membership relevant here is common gendered behaviours not sex.

The point about average differences is that they are averages. They don't apply to everyone.

Duh. And the point you are missing is the group membership relevant here is contingent on the association to average behaviours because that is what the group signifies. It makes no claim about all members of either sex complying.

But a boy who likes dolls and kitchen equipment is still a boy, and a girl who likes trucks, blocks and toy soldiers is still a girl.

No one is suggesting sex changes because of an association to average gendered behaviours only gender if an individual identifies with the average opposite sexed behaviours.

You, along with the authors of this article, seem to want to take us back in time to when girls were told that they weren't good at things like maths and they should go back to being pretty little things who should just search for a husband and produce children. And, of course that men should all be macho and not show any emotions or feelings.

You don't seem to understand the difference between averages & individuals.

Baileyonice · Today 01:32

MarieDeGournay · Yesterday 12:53

Baileyonice But the point you are missing is trans people aren't saying gendered behavioural averages apply to all people in a group but only to themselves as individuals. They are simply saying they as an individual have more in common with average behaviours of one group more than the other & as such consider themselves as part of that group for this reason.

If that is in fact what trans people are saying - I'll take you're word for it Baileyonice - it is very easily refuted, due to that last phrase.

'Considering yourself' to have more in common with a group is not objective proof that you belong to that group and are entitled to be part of that group.

'Considering yourself' to be part of a group fails to take into account two big stumbling blocks:

  1. observable facts and
  2. acceptance by the group that you are part of it.

'Considering yourself' to have some shared behaviours is not a substitute for basic , factually observable identifiers, like being tall, or left handed, or male or female.

An individual attempting to join a group that they don't objectively/factually belong to on the sole basis that they 'consider themselves' to be part of the group - an able-bodied person in a people with disabilities group, or a non-parent in a support group for single mothers, for example - will probably be advised to 'reconsider themselves' into a group that they actually share basic characteristics with.

Strawman. The group membership is average gendered behaviours not sex that by virtue of possessing those behaviours acts as a qualification.

That competing rights are implicated doesn't invalidate membership to the above group. These are two very separate matters that are dealt with in law via proportionality/balancing of rights.

Baileyonice · Today 01:36

Helleofabore · Yesterday 14:04

"No human being knows what it feels like to inhabit the body of the opposite sex any more than we know what it feels like to inhabit the body of an elephant".

In checking back in a video that came up with a previous discussion with Howsa, I came across Germaine Greer very clearly stating that there was a difference between (my paraphrase) identifying and ‘knowledge’. That people can talk all they like about identity but no man ‘knows’ that he is female because that is clearly impossible.

I will see if I can find it again

Strawman.
The point you are spectacularly missing is trans people know average gendered behaviours because they possess them. For the zillionth time, sex & gender aren't the same thing.

Baileyonice · Today 01:37

BernardBlacksMolluscs · Yesterday 14:07

what's between your legs is kinda important if the question is 'might I get pregnant if I have sex?', or 'I'm bleeding from my genitals. Do I go to hospital or go find a sanitary towel?'

I really wonder how people like you think babies are made. there's no such thing as the 'right' to have a body that can get pregnant

Edited

There's this thing called 'proportionality' in law.

Helleofabore · Today 04:19

Baileyonice · Today 00:08

Like religion or political beliefs?

You walked into that one.

I didn’t ‘walk’ into anything. Your point is not relevant to what I was referring to.

Helleofabore · Today 04:28

Baileyonice · Today 01:36

Strawman.
The point you are spectacularly missing is trans people know average gendered behaviours because they possess them. For the zillionth time, sex & gender aren't the same thing.

And for the zillionth time, sex based stereotypes are based on sex.

And for the zillionth time, if what you say is true that trans people are associating with ‘an average’ gendered behaviour, why do they then undergo extreme body modification to replicate the ‘sex ‘ characteristics of the sex they don’t belong to.

You are trying to separate the two, yet sex remains the integral basis of the identity.

You keep speaking for trans people while also then telling us you are not transgender. The point remains that you cannot accurately describe what a transgender person is or isn’t experiencing but you have continued to do so for a long time now.

Baileyonice · Today 05:48

Helleofabore · Today 04:19

I didn’t ‘walk’ into anything. Your point is not relevant to what I was referring to.

Oh yes you did. YOU said only material reality was meaningful and thereby deserved to be treated accordingly.

Do you even understand the implication of your own words?

NotBadConsidering · Today 06:02

Trans people are now arguing that sex is mutable and “gender” is immutable. They can’t even get their own arguments in order. The whole “sex and gender are different!” is now being reversed in order to justify their own belief system.

Baileyonice · Today 06:09

Helleofabore · Today 04:28

And for the zillionth time, sex based stereotypes are based on sex.

And for the zillionth time, if what you say is true that trans people are associating with ‘an average’ gendered behaviour, why do they then undergo extreme body modification to replicate the ‘sex ‘ characteristics of the sex they don’t belong to.

You are trying to separate the two, yet sex remains the integral basis of the identity.

You keep speaking for trans people while also then telling us you are not transgender. The point remains that you cannot accurately describe what a transgender person is or isn’t experiencing but you have continued to do so for a long time now.

And for the zillionth time, sex based stereotypes are based on sex.

Irrelevant to typical behaviours. Typical behaviours are not expectations unless you want them to be.

And for the zillionth time, if what you say is true that trans people are associating with ‘an average’ gendered behaviour, why do they then undergo extreme body modification to replicate the ‘sex ‘ characteristics of the sex they don’t belong to.

The same reason cis people do. To express their inclination towards feminine or masculine aesthetics.

You keep speaking for trans people while also then telling us you are not transgender. The point remains that you cannot accurately describe what a transgender person is or isn’t experiencing but you have continued to do so for a long time now.

Unlike GC's who never speak for trans people?

You don't need to be trans to experience gender. Masculine & feminine inclinations aren't exclusive to trans people. Being female myself I gravitate primarily towards average feminine behavioural inclinations so I can understand how males with such inclinations might associate more with this average than men in terms of behaviour.

And the idea that only those with lived experience can offer a substantive assessment not only flies in the face of our entire judicial system but completely underestimates the human sophistication of being able able to walk in another's shoes.

BunnyBunbunbun · Today 06:37

Baileyonice · 07/08/2026 09:28

This analysis fails to acknowledge evolved personality traits like femininity & masculinity that drive gender identification. But let's not let biology get in the way of pathologising anything you don't like.

Your point - to the extent that a point can be discerned - is undermined by the fact that transwomen (i.e. biological men) have absolutely no feminine personality traits and transmen (i.e. biological women) have no masculine personality traits, to the extent that such "masculine" and "feminine" personality traits exist. What people who identify as trans tend to do, however, is act out stereotypical behaviours and gestures that they believe pertain to the opposite sex, like the bloke wearing a wig and a very padded bra who worked at reception at a restaurant I went to the other week, who was twirling the locks on his wig because he thinks 1950s gender stereotypes are what makes a woman, or my lapsed friend who has decided she is no longer a lesbian but a man and so positions her feet in certain ways when she stands because she thinks that makes her seem more manly and it also minimises her very obvious female hips.

Baileyonice · Today 06:40

BunnyBunbunbun · Today 06:37

Your point - to the extent that a point can be discerned - is undermined by the fact that transwomen (i.e. biological men) have absolutely no feminine personality traits and transmen (i.e. biological women) have no masculine personality traits, to the extent that such "masculine" and "feminine" personality traits exist. What people who identify as trans tend to do, however, is act out stereotypical behaviours and gestures that they believe pertain to the opposite sex, like the bloke wearing a wig and a very padded bra who worked at reception at a restaurant I went to the other week, who was twirling the locks on his wig because he thinks 1950s gender stereotypes are what makes a woman, or my lapsed friend who has decided she is no longer a lesbian but a man and so positions her feet in certain ways when she stands because she thinks that makes her seem more manly and it also minimises her very obvious female hips.

And your point - to the extent that a point can be discerned -is undermined by BIOLOGY in that the sexes share personality traits. Hormone & genetics can be 'funny' like that.

BunnyBunbunbun · Today 06:57

Baileyonice · Today 06:40

And your point - to the extent that a point can be discerned -is undermined by BIOLOGY in that the sexes share personality traits. Hormone & genetics can be 'funny' like that.

Again, your point is obscure.

So, according to you, there are masculine personality traits, feminine traits and personality traits that are shared by both sexes. Moreover, you believe that these personality traits are due to biology. As you responded to my examples of gender-stereotyped behaviour with a statement that there are shared personality traits between both sexes, I'm presuming you believe that twirling one's hair and standing in certain "masculine" ways are personality traits shared by both sexes. The bloke at reception and my female friend will be disappointed then, because they assumed that these behaviours made them appear to be the opposite sex!

Can you give any examples of what you believe are "masculine" and "feminine" personality traits then?

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 07:07

But a boy who likes dolls and kitchen equipment is still a boy, and a girl who likes trucks, blocks and toy soldiers is still a girl.
No one is suggesting sex changes because of an association to average gendered behaviours only gender if an individual identifies with the average opposite sexed behaviours.

One of us has missed the point of the first response. I thought the point being made was a boy who likes dolls etc is still a boy, he doesn't have to change his 'gender' because it's perfectly normal for a boy to like dolls etc.

It may not be typical of boys, but it is still quite normal, it doesn't mean he's a girl, no gender reassignment needed, just acceptance that he's a boy who likes to play with dolls. Gender Critical 101.

Clusterfuckular · Today 07:13

Baileyonice · Yesterday 03:07

You have just posted about stereotypes.

Average differences aren't stereotypes. Stereotypes are expectations.

Again, these are not reliable at all for categorising sex in humans or even defining ‘genders’ if gender identity exists. There is always going to be people who will have a mixture of these traits mentioned.

There doesn't have to be a reliable way to categorise humans when it comes to self declared identity because that is a personal subjective determination based on values & beliefs not facts or objective truths….just like it is for sex realists.

This is not evidence that someone who has a tick list of traits that are associated more with male people have a male gender identity or sex.

Again this is a personally subjective determination only an individual can decide for themselves based on how they understand the world as it applies to them. Its in no way saying one size fits all.

Of course, I would also say feminists have been fighting against such categorisations for decades. Isn’t this the very foundational belief of feminists critical of gender stereotypes?

But the point you are missing is trans people aren't saying gendered behavioural averages apply to all people in a group but only to themselves as individuals. They are simply saying they as an individual have more in common with average behaviours of one group more than the other & as such consider themselves as part of that group for this reason.

It's not sexist to state the fact that group commonalities exist & an individual might have more in common with one group despite not having other commonalties.

It is entirely sexist to suggest that if a person has a certain personality trait they must be one sex or the other, and so might be 'in the wrong body'. Not only sexist; its fucking absurd and ridiculous.

Feminists spent centuries trying to disentangle this.

(I mean, not individually, although sometimes it feels like it.)

Clusterfuckular · Today 07:15

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 07:07

But a boy who likes dolls and kitchen equipment is still a boy, and a girl who likes trucks, blocks and toy soldiers is still a girl.
No one is suggesting sex changes because of an association to average gendered behaviours only gender if an individual identifies with the average opposite sexed behaviours.

One of us has missed the point of the first response. I thought the point being made was a boy who likes dolls etc is still a boy, he doesn't have to change his 'gender' because it's perfectly normal for a boy to like dolls etc.

It may not be typical of boys, but it is still quite normal, it doesn't mean he's a girl, no gender reassignment needed, just acceptance that he's a boy who likes to play with dolls. Gender Critical 101.

Feminism basics, innit.

I cant believe we've got to go over this shit all over again.

Clusterfuckular · Today 07:25

'I think of “transgender” as what I call a corralling term.

It corrals a wide variety of unrelated experiences—homosexuality, trauma, gender nonconformity, fetishism, body dissatisfaction, autism, obsessive thinking, childhood confusion—and herds them all through a single gate. Once inside that corral, they receive one explanation and one identity. The individual is branded with a label, and that label becomes the organizing principle of their life.

That, to me, is a profoundly political act.'

All are O.K. at the Transgender Corral

Trans Corralling is Marketing Magic

https://www.theknownheretic.com/p/trans-corralling?utm_source=publication-search

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 07:31

They're definitely being herded like sheep into an ideology that wants to treat them as sheep.

Baileyonice · Today 08:11

BunnyBunbunbun · Today 06:57

Again, your point is obscure.

So, according to you, there are masculine personality traits, feminine traits and personality traits that are shared by both sexes. Moreover, you believe that these personality traits are due to biology. As you responded to my examples of gender-stereotyped behaviour with a statement that there are shared personality traits between both sexes, I'm presuming you believe that twirling one's hair and standing in certain "masculine" ways are personality traits shared by both sexes. The bloke at reception and my female friend will be disappointed then, because they assumed that these behaviours made them appear to be the opposite sex!

Can you give any examples of what you believe are "masculine" and "feminine" personality traits then?

I already did upthread with a link to sexed behaviours. Try & keep up.

Baileyonice · Today 08:13

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 07:07

But a boy who likes dolls and kitchen equipment is still a boy, and a girl who likes trucks, blocks and toy soldiers is still a girl.
No one is suggesting sex changes because of an association to average gendered behaviours only gender if an individual identifies with the average opposite sexed behaviours.

One of us has missed the point of the first response. I thought the point being made was a boy who likes dolls etc is still a boy, he doesn't have to change his 'gender' because it's perfectly normal for a boy to like dolls etc.

It may not be typical of boys, but it is still quite normal, it doesn't mean he's a girl, no gender reassignment needed, just acceptance that he's a boy who likes to play with dolls. Gender Critical 101.

Straw man. No one is suggesting trans people change sex. The clue is in the name 'trans gender'.

Baileyonice · Today 08:13

Clusterfuckular · Today 07:13

It is entirely sexist to suggest that if a person has a certain personality trait they must be one sex or the other, and so might be 'in the wrong body'. Not only sexist; its fucking absurd and ridiculous.

Feminists spent centuries trying to disentangle this.

(I mean, not individually, although sometimes it feels like it.)

Sex & gender aren't the same thing.

Swipe left for the next trending thread