Should access to mental health services depend on you saying pronouns?

[wanttoworkbut]

I think not...

I have been having a rough time of it lately and wanted to self refer to CBT. A chat bot greets me - fair enough, saves staff time taking down vital details.

But quite quickly you are asked for your gender, and not sex. Femail includes trans women, it says. OK, I could probably see why, if ones mental health difficulties related to have dysmorphia etc. But then you have to state pronouns, no option to say no or 'other' or skip question.

I've not continued, I can't face it. Therpay requires authenticity surely.

vitahealthgroup.co.uk/nhs-talking-therapies/newcastle/

Nobody would be bothered about being asked their pronouns if it was to clarify that Dr Alex Smith is "she".

Yes, yes they really would.

Women have fought for years to have the option of not revealing their sex when it is not relevant.

If you want to know the sex of a doctor, then the question is 'what is the sex of the doctor?', not a round about question about how the doctor's identity relates to gender.

I can only conclude that the last few decades of feminism have completely passed you by.

Indeed. Surely I'm not the only one who has omitted my first name on occasion?

If they only asked for sex they would know what to call her. To sensible people pronouns are sex-based. I would feel the same as the OP. If the organisation concerned is in thrall to gender identity ideology I'd doubt they could help me.

the fun of working with international partners who just assume your name is male , the difference it can make to working relationships

strangely I have found that once the relationship is established then them realising you are female doesn’t seem to matter so much

I'm sorry you encountered this, OP, and I completely understand that it is a barrier to accessing the support that you want and are entitled to.

Any questionnaire that asks about 'your pronouns' is unnecessarily taking sides in a contentious social issue that is recent, irrational, and probably temporary.

Any health questionnaire that asks about 'your pronouns' or 'gender' but not about your biological sex is missing out a vitally important piece of medical information.

I recently got an information pack about planning end-of-life care. It asks about pronouns and gender, but not sex.

I had a similar reaction to the OP's - a mixture of
'Oh FFS!'
and
'How can I trust these people to treat me properly and respectfully if they can't even acknowledge that I'm a biological woman, or that the category 'woman' is biologically defined and of medical significance?'

I understand that it's a barrier, OP. You don't want to be seeking support from people who clearly don't accept how you define yourself, i.e. according to your biological sex, and what position you take on this social issue.

I'd feel the same. A therapist who indicated that they believe that some men can become women, or that we must all act as if some men can become women, is not somebody I'd feel I could trust.

I hope you get the support you need, without having to slalom through ideologically-motivated practices.

The thing the OP objected to was not being able to bypass this stage. She said:

But then you have to state pronouns, no option to say no or 'other' or skip question.

That is compelling the user to state something they don't wish to, just in order to allow others to specify their preferred pronouns. Sauce for the gander should also mean sauce for the goose but in this case it doesn't.

Also note that this is a thread about someone accessing help with mental health services.

Why is it when TRAs want pronouns their wants/needs/vulnerability must be respected, but when women don't want pronouns it's 'mad'?

Plus ca change, eh?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/the-controversy-of-female-hysteria

I just don't feel that I can trust advice from a medical organisation that is broadcasting it's belief in an Ideology in preference to Biological facts.
I've written to them to say so.

The more of us that can point out the issues wherever they come up, the better.

Especially when we are able to advocate for those who may feel unable to do so.

I'm currently doing this exact CBT OP, and had a similar off-putting thought when I was completing the forms. I can't speak to what you should do, but I can say that I'm a few weeks in and am finding it very useful. It is a great resource when you need it, and I'd encourage you to still seek support.

I get it OP. It implies the service has a misogynist bias which is obviously unacceptable!

In case it needs spelling out, often women are seeking support for misogynist abuse. Often women report that their encounters with various professionals (following abuse) can be re triggering. Misogyny is dehumanising, as is abuse.

That said, it tells you about the bias of the managers/ form creators/ local council officials. Not the individual therapists.

Thanks, it's this exactly.

I don't want to declare on a form that I identify as a woman, because I don't. I AM a woman. I would not be telling the truth if I said identify as one.

Excellent point, thank you.

It did make me feel I would be unwelcome, at a time when I already feel pretty useless and unwanted.

Yes, and that's why it pissed me off.

You have every right to be treated with respect and your feelings matter just as much as those of a person with a 'trans' identity.

As we've seen on this thread, we will be met with the strange double standard, that this kind of thing is both utterly trivial and unimportant when we raise it, and that we are 'mad' for even mentioning it, but at the same time a matter of gravity when gender advocates raise it.

Which is why women are expected to meekly comply with the system created around the beliefs of genderism.

It's a system that disadvantages women, but that is inconsequential.

It's always instructive to see how things perceived as 'of women' are treated compared to things perceived as 'of men'.

As we've seen on this thread, we will be met with the strange double standard, that this kind of thing is both utterly trivial and unimportant when we raise it, and that we are 'mad' for even mentioning it, but at the same time a matter of gravity when gender advocates raise it.

💯% this.

And I'm also 💯% sure that this will be conspicuously ignored by The Righteous.

I was driving to the shops and it suddenly occurred to me that when I wrote in a post that I was thinking about 'end-of-life arrangements', that might give the impression that I had been told my e-of-l was nigh..
I got a emoji, which I feel bad about.
so I've nipped back home to say sorry for giving that impression, it was just part of revising my will, that sort of thing.

Barring a six-pack of baked beans falling from a height at the supermarket, I
should be OK for another wee while

And to anybody who is dealing with it for real...

Thank you @MarieDeGournayfor that clarification !

Glad to hear it, Marie! May the baked beans be for ever in your favour.

Thank you, there's so much love and support on this board for women who need it, that I'd feel awful if I gave the impression that I needed it for such a serious reason, when I don't... yet😐
I'm back from the supermarket, still in one piece

Really?

Do you really not understand how offensive that question is to women who don't believe womanhood is a personality trait?

I find the suggestion that "she" can be an indication of anything other than the simple fact of body sex as offensive and degrading as I would turning up to a face to face session and seeing my therapist wearing a "women belong in the kitchen" T shirt.

It is frustrating, particularly having it pretty much right away.

When I used it recently on recommendation from another to access local services, it was off-putting to jump into all of this. I can see why some might from the AI bot just too much of a slog to get through the innaneness and obvious data collection before getting to anything of value.

No-one is asking you to call anyone else by their preferred pronouns, they're asking you want to be called. Why are you allowing this to prevent you from getting access to mental health support?

Except it doesn't really ask what anyone wants to be called, not really. The closest it gets it asking: Is [name] your preferred first name?

This is the starting sequence after being asked if the referral is being made for 'myself' or someone else, and selecting 'myself':

What's your full name?
Is [name] your preferred first name?
Which gender do you identify as?
Is your gender the same as the gender you were assigned at birth?
What's your title?
And what are your preferred pronouns?
It then goes on to collect several other data points including date of birth, post code and so on. It doesn't get into actually asking questions related to mental health until after the dozens of data point questions.

It never asks if you prefer to go by your first name or title + surname or something else.
It doesn't give the option to have no title or use any other title other than the options it gives.
It doesn't give the option to say any pronouns or give any set of pronouns other than the pre-set options

If those behind it cared and wanted to ask 'what do you want to be called', they would have programmed it in. They didn't. They asked a series of data questions, asked in a way that presumes everyone has a certain, firm answer that can fit into the presets (going against many theraputic practices) and is okay with going through all that before getting to apparently less significant questions like "have you had thoughts that you would be better off dead, or thoughts of hurting yourself in some way?"

This isn't 'what do you want to be called?', it's 'What data can we get on you?'." This isn't a mistake - the function shows its purpose. The mental health support is visibly secondary (or tertiary) to data collection. In many locations, these types of bots are the only way to access NHS mental services -- those who can afford to can get support without being asked anything on this data list.

If don't see how it raises questions about quality of support to be asked how you want others to refer to you.

I mean, on mine (which I saved a copy), it says "Alright, I'm just going to search you in the NHS database with the details you've given me
Found you!" and still went on to ask serveral more data questions before getting that what I think are far more essential to the core of the service. There were multiple times throughout I was tempted to close because it felt like it was doing nothing but trying to gather more data on me that I didn't need to do with any other related service.

Also this is a private company getting paid public funds to do all this - one that is partially owned by a US asset management company, which means the data collected by the sections they own likely come under US laws.

Can you guess why it raises questions about quality of support to know why a private company with that ownership that is focused on asking those kinds of data questions before asking mental health questions?

If it is, it's a problem with the system, not someone in mental health distress.

It's unbelievable that anyone in any circumstances other than comedy or research would be asked "which gender stereotypes do you feel best describe you?", let alone in a mental health environment.

And yet, this is exactly what 100s of companies and organisations are doing every day as a matter of course.