Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8

537 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 10:44

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-7

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Hyenana · Today 19:36

crabbyoldbat · Today 19:26

I thought there was mention (here? somewhere?) of the C getting the SoD through a SAR

Didn't that Laura Brown or whatshername FOI it somehow?
I think I posted something about that a long while back, gotta see if I find it again.

Rightsraptor · Today 19:43

That's true, @poppsocks, but if you see them both there's no doubt who is male & who female from whichever angle we look at them.

poppsocks · Today 19:45

Hyenana · Today 15:31

What I find amazing about this case is the contrast between the high legal ambition of trying to relitigate Forstater, and the rather low ability of the claimant and his witness to convince anyone that they actually have a case.
Someone must have thought he was a good person to pursue (and finance) this test case with, but I fail to see what they saw in him. He's got a GRC, but that seems to be it.

I've been thinking about this a bit.
If they had found somewhere where GC views were being presented in a bullying, harrassing way, they could theoretically just end up with "you can express GC views, just not in a bullying or harrassing way". (Which is afaik the current situation)

They had to use a situation where the views were expressed in a neutral, factual, positive and open way, to hope that it would be ruled that even that is not permitted.

It's like trying to ban someone saying 'I'm a Christian' because that is implying that atheists, Hindus etc are wrong and harmful to believe that Jesus isn't the Son of God.

And...this is what they came up with.

Hyenana · Today 19:46

Hyenana · Today 19:36

Didn't that Laura Brown or whatshername FOI it somehow?
I think I posted something about that a long while back, gotta see if I find it again.

yes, this must be it:

Tardy moderation … but not balance
Defra group's shared HR eventually tried to address the ongoing controversy over the SEEN Network by introducing a complex system of private Yammer groups (although “gender critical” material kept breaking containment) and setting up an Intranet Moderation Panel that offensive content could be reported to. However, as one of my Freedom of Information requests showed, membership of this panel was self-selecting. People put themselves forward to join and weren't required to declare conflicts of interest, nor were there any measures in place to ensure a range of views or backgrounds. I also found that the odds of trans-supportive material being removed were nearly four times higher (9:1) than the odds of “gender critical” material being removed (7:3).
https://lauradelcolbrown.com/Mumsnet-and-Mr-Mueller/

Mumsnet and Mr Mueller

Explore the impact of the SEEN Network's influence on UK government departments, as told by a trans ally who faced significant personal and professional challenges. This page delves into the infiltration of transphobic ideologies, their consequences, a...

https://lauradelcolbrown.com/Mumsnet-and-Mr-Mueller/

Tallisker · Today 19:46

poppsocks · Today 19:21

Could we not perpetuate the GI belief that femininity (or elegance, or thinness, or clothes) has any bearing whatsoever on whether someone is female?

I'm frankly sick of it.

Commenting on the differences in the male and female bodies in this case is not perpetuating a GI belief. On the contrary, it’s pointing out the very real and obvious differences between women and men.

Tallisker · Today 19:52

Laura Brown has been all over everything like a rash to find something incriminating to beat SEEN, Defra and the wider Civil Service over the head with. She’s pretty vocal about trans issues on every platform she’s on, internal and external. Loathes SEEN with a passion, evidently.

poppsocks · Today 19:55

Rightsraptor · Today 19:43

That's true, @poppsocks, but if you see them both there's no doubt who is male & who female from whichever angle we look at them.

So if ST was slight and Elspeth built like a brick outhouse, would that change anything?

This focus on appearance is exactly what the TRAs do.

Why is it not enough to say E is female and ST is male? Build, thinness matters not.

ProfLargofesse · Today 20:08

Justabaker · Today 17:08

'No Debate' has had some disastrous downstream consequences for the trans movement. They made significant societal gains through stealth, emotional blackmail, using the LGB as cover, a long running positive campaign in the arts & media.

ST, for example, learned that throwing mantrums, being testerical, using hyperbole as argument, quoting Stonewall law - got everything ST's heart desired. Entitlement on steroids. Allies like JH working to manipulate any all processes. Until it stopped working.

So, scale that entitlement up to the wider movement and it's 'strategic thinking'. Rather than take a cold hard look at seismic defeats like Forstater, Higgs and FWS they have consistently downplayed and minimised the consequences. At least in what they tell the rank and file activists and tame press. I think they are, to a degree, living in the past with a tame press (actual activists) and many politicians in their pockets. It's hard to win if you refuse to actually name the problem. For example, they haven't realised that the bananrama defence doesn't really work unless you have some egregious behaviour. Will do a separate post on this.

The wider TRA movement and it's money folks may think this is a good case with a sympathetic claimant. But they've not been in a fair fight for quite some time, so they are struggling to make a realistic assessment of the case. Like the GLP challenge of the EHRC interim guidance, doomed from the word go even though the judge essentially re-wrote their pleadings for them in the initial court appearance.

In my professional life, we had a truism - you strengthened your arguments by seeking out someone with the opposite view. We called it 'sharpening the sword'. The TRA movement avoided exactly that situation.

I'm not a fan of the judge, but paraphrasing Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady 'I think he's got it'. The C has a weak case, further weakened by some procedural errors - the principal vs agent ruling was significant. If I (IANAL) was summing up C's case - you might criticise the Rs as reactive not proactive in their attempts to 'protect trans people' from the expression of gender critical thought. And may have been dilatory in their processes and responses to grievances. How much sand did the C throw into the process machine? Hard to say.

The SHOOM is turning into a legendary self inflicted wound for the C. (How did it fall into the C's hands???). Not in the bundle, late introduction, less than adequate vetting, HH did not have 'command' of it.

CA was a magnificent witness for Rs and NB was not bad either. The Rs are hiding no one - which is often the problem in gender critical cases. We have a saying in TT - there's often an angry enby or trans in there who calls up the witch hunt and leaves smoking guns all over the documentary record. That person is never called to give evidence. They are such a liability (think Mridul Wadhwa) and would totally befoul the nest and crap all over the case that even an activist barrister would shudder at the thought.

I have a question for the Hive Mind though. Why is this case not attracting press interest? Would appreciate thoughts on this.

I cannot see harassment or even indirect discrimination in this case, even with the Judge putting his thumb on the scales and the Panel member who seems to be a bit of TRA.

(I'm very worried about the conversion therapy bill BTW and will it bring back 'no debate' by stealth).

Thanks for that excellent analysis and framing.

in response to your question, I think the paradigm of DEFRA and arms-length bodies is too hard to explain. Scrolling is Queen, the news cycle is lightening fast and you have, maybe, 300-400 to tell the attention grabbing bit and provide context. This does not fit that space. You couldn’t even easily paint a broad brush of it. Also, there hasn’t been anything to grab a headline yet. Naomi has almost provided some potentially great sound bytes but they need too much context and the context is tricky.

I think there might interest when it comes to submissions but more likely the judgment if there is a juicy reprimand in it somewhere either for R/s or C.

I J Robertson wants to avoid headlines the best way is to make his judgment a dull and measured read.

So, in my view, in short, the reason for no press is basically the SHOOM!

Hyenana · Today 20:11

poppsocks · Today 19:45

I've been thinking about this a bit.
If they had found somewhere where GC views were being presented in a bullying, harrassing way, they could theoretically just end up with "you can express GC views, just not in a bullying or harrassing way". (Which is afaik the current situation)

They had to use a situation where the views were expressed in a neutral, factual, positive and open way, to hope that it would be ruled that even that is not permitted.

It's like trying to ban someone saying 'I'm a Christian' because that is implying that atheists, Hindus etc are wrong and harmful to believe that Jesus isn't the Son of God.

And...this is what they came up with.

I'm not so sure. If they had found a bunch of really confrontational GCs - and they did their very best to paint AM that way before the case against him got thrown out! - and a somewhat TA-leaning judge, they might have ended up with a ruling that supported their claim that the expression of GC beliefs should be heavily restricted as not to hurt Tink's feelings/identity/existence.
Coupled with an employer found guilty of enabling harassment, they could have spun it publicly to try to put all gc expressions in the 'to be restricted' box, to only leave the purely silent belief as protected by WORIADS. That would have had a serious chilling effect.

It's like when someone tells you their colleague unfairly criticised them for being lazy, and also called them a scumbag and punched them in the face - you are automatically less likely to consider if the lazyness criticism might be true because the colleague has delegitimised himself so much by his other actions.

I think it's more likely they had a plan, some of it went wrong, and they are carrying on with the rest in the hope it might still work.

poppsocks · Today 20:20

Hyenana · Today 20:11

I'm not so sure. If they had found a bunch of really confrontational GCs - and they did their very best to paint AM that way before the case against him got thrown out! - and a somewhat TA-leaning judge, they might have ended up with a ruling that supported their claim that the expression of GC beliefs should be heavily restricted as not to hurt Tink's feelings/identity/existence.
Coupled with an employer found guilty of enabling harassment, they could have spun it publicly to try to put all gc expressions in the 'to be restricted' box, to only leave the purely silent belief as protected by WORIADS. That would have had a serious chilling effect.

It's like when someone tells you their colleague unfairly criticised them for being lazy, and also called them a scumbag and punched them in the face - you are automatically less likely to consider if the lazyness criticism might be true because the colleague has delegitimised himself so much by his other actions.

I think it's more likely they had a plan, some of it went wrong, and they are carrying on with the rest in the hope it might still work.

Yes, you're probably right! I think I was just trying to reason why their case is so poor!

Hyenana · Today 20:26

@Justabaker
Why is this case not attracting press interest? Would appreciate thoughts on this.

There are also the ongoing discussions about the puberty blockers trial, the conversion practices bill, the Amnesty 'hate groups' report, the EHRC CoP EDM etc - there seem to be so many other gc/trans related things going on that have more obvious current significance than an ET about things that happened in 2022/23 about someone trying to shut down a SEEN network, when those Networks have been set up all over the place in recent years.

Hyenana · Today 20:34

poppsocks · Today 20:20

Yes, you're probably right! I think I was just trying to reason why their case is so poor!

I get that! This all seems to be so self-evidently ridiculous that I occasionally start thinking if there is some grand masterplan that I just don't see...

New posts on this thread. Refresh page