Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8

629 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 10/07/2026 10:44

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-7

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Hyenana · 11/07/2026 19:36

crabbyoldbat · 11/07/2026 19:26

I thought there was mention (here? somewhere?) of the C getting the SoD through a SAR

Didn't that Laura Brown or whatshername FOI it somehow?
I think I posted something about that a long while back, gotta see if I find it again.

Rightsraptor · 11/07/2026 19:43

That's true, @poppsocks, but if you see them both there's no doubt who is male & who female from whichever angle we look at them.

poppsocks · 11/07/2026 19:45

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 15:31

What I find amazing about this case is the contrast between the high legal ambition of trying to relitigate Forstater, and the rather low ability of the claimant and his witness to convince anyone that they actually have a case.
Someone must have thought he was a good person to pursue (and finance) this test case with, but I fail to see what they saw in him. He's got a GRC, but that seems to be it.

I've been thinking about this a bit.
If they had found somewhere where GC views were being presented in a bullying, harrassing way, they could theoretically just end up with "you can express GC views, just not in a bullying or harrassing way". (Which is afaik the current situation)

They had to use a situation where the views were expressed in a neutral, factual, positive and open way, to hope that it would be ruled that even that is not permitted.

It's like trying to ban someone saying 'I'm a Christian' because that is implying that atheists, Hindus etc are wrong and harmful to believe that Jesus isn't the Son of God.

And...this is what they came up with.

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 19:46

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 19:36

Didn't that Laura Brown or whatshername FOI it somehow?
I think I posted something about that a long while back, gotta see if I find it again.

yes, this must be it:

Tardy moderation … but not balance
Defra group's shared HR eventually tried to address the ongoing controversy over the SEEN Network by introducing a complex system of private Yammer groups (although “gender critical” material kept breaking containment) and setting up an Intranet Moderation Panel that offensive content could be reported to. However, as one of my Freedom of Information requests showed, membership of this panel was self-selecting. People put themselves forward to join and weren't required to declare conflicts of interest, nor were there any measures in place to ensure a range of views or backgrounds. I also found that the odds of trans-supportive material being removed were nearly four times higher (9:1) than the odds of “gender critical” material being removed (7:3).
https://lauradelcolbrown.com/Mumsnet-and-Mr-Mueller/

Mumsnet and Mr Mueller

Explore the impact of the SEEN Network's influence on UK government departments, as told by a trans ally who faced significant personal and professional challenges. This page delves into the infiltration of transphobic ideologies, their consequences, a...

https://lauradelcolbrown.com/Mumsnet-and-Mr-Mueller/

Tallisker · 11/07/2026 19:46

poppsocks · 11/07/2026 19:21

Could we not perpetuate the GI belief that femininity (or elegance, or thinness, or clothes) has any bearing whatsoever on whether someone is female?

I'm frankly sick of it.

Commenting on the differences in the male and female bodies in this case is not perpetuating a GI belief. On the contrary, it’s pointing out the very real and obvious differences between women and men.

Tallisker · 11/07/2026 19:52

Laura Brown has been all over everything like a rash to find something incriminating to beat SEEN, Defra and the wider Civil Service over the head with. She’s pretty vocal about trans issues on every platform she’s on, internal and external. Loathes SEEN with a passion, evidently.

poppsocks · 11/07/2026 19:55

Rightsraptor · 11/07/2026 19:43

That's true, @poppsocks, but if you see them both there's no doubt who is male & who female from whichever angle we look at them.

So if ST was slight and Elspeth built like a brick outhouse, would that change anything?

This focus on appearance is exactly what the TRAs do.

Why is it not enough to say E is female and ST is male? Build, thinness matters not.

ProfLargofesse · 11/07/2026 20:08

Justabaker · 11/07/2026 17:08

'No Debate' has had some disastrous downstream consequences for the trans movement. They made significant societal gains through stealth, emotional blackmail, using the LGB as cover, a long running positive campaign in the arts & media.

ST, for example, learned that throwing mantrums, being testerical, using hyperbole as argument, quoting Stonewall law - got everything ST's heart desired. Entitlement on steroids. Allies like JH working to manipulate any all processes. Until it stopped working.

So, scale that entitlement up to the wider movement and it's 'strategic thinking'. Rather than take a cold hard look at seismic defeats like Forstater, Higgs and FWS they have consistently downplayed and minimised the consequences. At least in what they tell the rank and file activists and tame press. I think they are, to a degree, living in the past with a tame press (actual activists) and many politicians in their pockets. It's hard to win if you refuse to actually name the problem. For example, they haven't realised that the bananrama defence doesn't really work unless you have some egregious behaviour. Will do a separate post on this.

The wider TRA movement and it's money folks may think this is a good case with a sympathetic claimant. But they've not been in a fair fight for quite some time, so they are struggling to make a realistic assessment of the case. Like the GLP challenge of the EHRC interim guidance, doomed from the word go even though the judge essentially re-wrote their pleadings for them in the initial court appearance.

In my professional life, we had a truism - you strengthened your arguments by seeking out someone with the opposite view. We called it 'sharpening the sword'. The TRA movement avoided exactly that situation.

I'm not a fan of the judge, but paraphrasing Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady 'I think he's got it'. The C has a weak case, further weakened by some procedural errors - the principal vs agent ruling was significant. If I (IANAL) was summing up C's case - you might criticise the Rs as reactive not proactive in their attempts to 'protect trans people' from the expression of gender critical thought. And may have been dilatory in their processes and responses to grievances. How much sand did the C throw into the process machine? Hard to say.

The SHOOM is turning into a legendary self inflicted wound for the C. (How did it fall into the C's hands???). Not in the bundle, late introduction, less than adequate vetting, HH did not have 'command' of it.

CA was a magnificent witness for Rs and NB was not bad either. The Rs are hiding no one - which is often the problem in gender critical cases. We have a saying in TT - there's often an angry enby or trans in there who calls up the witch hunt and leaves smoking guns all over the documentary record. That person is never called to give evidence. They are such a liability (think Mridul Wadhwa) and would totally befoul the nest and crap all over the case that even an activist barrister would shudder at the thought.

I have a question for the Hive Mind though. Why is this case not attracting press interest? Would appreciate thoughts on this.

I cannot see harassment or even indirect discrimination in this case, even with the Judge putting his thumb on the scales and the Panel member who seems to be a bit of TRA.

(I'm very worried about the conversion therapy bill BTW and will it bring back 'no debate' by stealth).

Thanks for that excellent analysis and framing.

in response to your question, I think the paradigm of DEFRA and arms-length bodies is too hard to explain. Scrolling is Queen, the news cycle is lightening fast and you have, maybe, 300-400 to tell the attention grabbing bit and provide context. This does not fit that space. You couldn’t even easily paint a broad brush of it. Also, there hasn’t been anything to grab a headline yet. Naomi has almost provided some potentially great sound bytes but they need too much context and the context is tricky.

I think there might interest when it comes to submissions but more likely the judgment if there is a juicy reprimand in it somewhere either for R/s or C.

I J Robertson wants to avoid headlines the best way is to make his judgment a dull and measured read.

So, in my view, in short, the reason for no press is basically the SHOOM!

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 20:11

poppsocks · 11/07/2026 19:45

I've been thinking about this a bit.
If they had found somewhere where GC views were being presented in a bullying, harrassing way, they could theoretically just end up with "you can express GC views, just not in a bullying or harrassing way". (Which is afaik the current situation)

They had to use a situation where the views were expressed in a neutral, factual, positive and open way, to hope that it would be ruled that even that is not permitted.

It's like trying to ban someone saying 'I'm a Christian' because that is implying that atheists, Hindus etc are wrong and harmful to believe that Jesus isn't the Son of God.

And...this is what they came up with.

I'm not so sure. If they had found a bunch of really confrontational GCs - and they did their very best to paint AM that way before the case against him got thrown out! - and a somewhat TA-leaning judge, they might have ended up with a ruling that supported their claim that the expression of GC beliefs should be heavily restricted as not to hurt Tink's feelings/identity/existence.
Coupled with an employer found guilty of enabling harassment, they could have spun it publicly to try to put all gc expressions in the 'to be restricted' box, to only leave the purely silent belief as protected by WORIADS. That would have had a serious chilling effect.

It's like when someone tells you their colleague unfairly criticised them for being lazy, and also called them a scumbag and punched them in the face - you are automatically less likely to consider if the lazyness criticism might be true because the colleague has delegitimised himself so much by his other actions.

I think it's more likely they had a plan, some of it went wrong, and they are carrying on with the rest in the hope it might still work.

poppsocks · 11/07/2026 20:20

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 20:11

I'm not so sure. If they had found a bunch of really confrontational GCs - and they did their very best to paint AM that way before the case against him got thrown out! - and a somewhat TA-leaning judge, they might have ended up with a ruling that supported their claim that the expression of GC beliefs should be heavily restricted as not to hurt Tink's feelings/identity/existence.
Coupled with an employer found guilty of enabling harassment, they could have spun it publicly to try to put all gc expressions in the 'to be restricted' box, to only leave the purely silent belief as protected by WORIADS. That would have had a serious chilling effect.

It's like when someone tells you their colleague unfairly criticised them for being lazy, and also called them a scumbag and punched them in the face - you are automatically less likely to consider if the lazyness criticism might be true because the colleague has delegitimised himself so much by his other actions.

I think it's more likely they had a plan, some of it went wrong, and they are carrying on with the rest in the hope it might still work.

Yes, you're probably right! I think I was just trying to reason why their case is so poor!

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 20:26

@Justabaker
Why is this case not attracting press interest? Would appreciate thoughts on this.

There are also the ongoing discussions about the puberty blockers trial, the conversion practices bill, the Amnesty 'hate groups' report, the EHRC CoP EDM etc - there seem to be so many other gc/trans related things going on that have more obvious current significance than an ET about things that happened in 2022/23 about someone trying to shut down a SEEN network, when those Networks have been set up all over the place in recent years.

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 20:34

poppsocks · 11/07/2026 20:20

Yes, you're probably right! I think I was just trying to reason why their case is so poor!

I get that! This all seems to be so self-evidently ridiculous that I occasionally start thinking if there is some grand masterplan that I just don't see...

hethor · 11/07/2026 21:12

poppsocks · 11/07/2026 19:55

So if ST was slight and Elspeth built like a brick outhouse, would that change anything?

This focus on appearance is exactly what the TRAs do.

Why is it not enough to say E is female and ST is male? Build, thinness matters not.

Yes, it would change things - it would mean that a photo of the two of them would be less immediately striking, which in turn would make the story less attractive to newspapers who depend on compelling visuals and headlines when competing for attention.

This is the point the poster you picked up in was making. In this particular case the visuals are very striking, which makes it a more appealing story for a newspaper editor motivated by clicks and attention.

ickky · 11/07/2026 21:43

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 20:26

@Justabaker
Why is this case not attracting press interest? Would appreciate thoughts on this.

There are also the ongoing discussions about the puberty blockers trial, the conversion practices bill, the Amnesty 'hate groups' report, the EHRC CoP EDM etc - there seem to be so many other gc/trans related things going on that have more obvious current significance than an ET about things that happened in 2022/23 about someone trying to shut down a SEEN network, when those Networks have been set up all over the place in recent years.

I think Amnesty has a list of the SEEN networks. 😉

IDenyTransExistence · 11/07/2026 21:49

ickky · 11/07/2026 21:43

I think Amnesty has a list of the SEEN networks. 😉

Yes I saw SEEN on the death list of rights deniers.

What a total bunch of muppets.

@Justabaker - I think most stories snowball. But normally a sex realist person is providing the photos and initial information. I think we haven’t got the first bit of snow rolled tightly yet.

@poppsocks - the purpose of story telling is to catch attention. You and I know gendered stereotypes are a crock. Yet the visuals of Isla Bryson painted a very clear picture of what a woman in a prison might experience more than a story ever could.

No matter what gendered signaling happens - men are men.

It matters not what Tink v Elspeth looks like overall - but the fact there is such a disparity in presentation, in rationality, in consistency in approach - that allows people to see
things differently.

IDenyTransExistence · 11/07/2026 22:02

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 19:46

yes, this must be it:

Tardy moderation … but not balance
Defra group's shared HR eventually tried to address the ongoing controversy over the SEEN Network by introducing a complex system of private Yammer groups (although “gender critical” material kept breaking containment) and setting up an Intranet Moderation Panel that offensive content could be reported to. However, as one of my Freedom of Information requests showed, membership of this panel was self-selecting. People put themselves forward to join and weren't required to declare conflicts of interest, nor were there any measures in place to ensure a range of views or backgrounds. I also found that the odds of trans-supportive material being removed were nearly four times higher (9:1) than the odds of “gender critical” material being removed (7:3).
https://lauradelcolbrown.com/Mumsnet-and-Mr-Mueller/

I have had a dig through most of her source material.

Really not seeing that level of the spreadsheet would have come via FoI but did give them smoke to then go looking for the fire.

7 health and safety incidents raised by trans identifying people in 2023 and 7/10 complaints upheld in moderation. Not quite the level of granularity the shroom gave.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
IDenyTransExistence · 11/07/2026 22:03

This Reddit page is a handy round up of Laura Browns as yet failed mission to cancel SEEN.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1hobn9b/seen_network/

IDenyTransExistence · 11/07/2026 22:18

I don’t believe in fairies but I do find it hilarious to see how innocuous the SEEN posts were as released under FoI and how they tried to go on a Mumsnet TERF hunt.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8
poppsocks · 11/07/2026 22:52

Fair enough re the points about playing to public preconceptions. I suppose I just can't comprehend how people need handholding quite so much... like people who would be put off buying a house because of wrong colour paint in the living room! (I also note there was a lot of discussion in previous threads about how ST's umbrella might have been decorated, so my annoyance that This Doesnt Matter was primed...)

SinnerBoy · 11/07/2026 23:09

Hyenana · Today 18:03

I didn't think of if immediately, perhaps it dint occur to Naomi soon enough and once admitted to evidence, it was a fait accompli?

Perhaps she may be able to question it in December? I am not a lawyer...

SinnerBoy · 11/07/2026 23:13

Hyenana · Today 19:46

Hyenana · Today 19:36

Didn't that Laura Brown or whatshername FOI it somehow?

Tardy moderation … but not balance

Evidently, they haven't compared the tone of the posts. I mean, obviously, "But humans can't change sex" is glaringly genocidal, compared to the gentle, innocuous "Die in a grease fire, bitch! I know where you live!"

MyAmpleSheep · 11/07/2026 23:15

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 17:51

Dennis Kavanagh has a lengthy thread on his various concerns regarding this bill - the relevance for businesses is for example mentioned in his talk with Helen Joyce, and in the post below that.
Sounds to me like 'someone' could accuse his colleague for trying to make him question his trans identity, and his employer for not having stopped that colleague from doing that.

But you're the lawyer, do you think that would be possible?

https://nitter.poast.org/Jebadoo2/status/2070900767272083787#m

I will have a look at the video - but to be clear, I'm not a lawyer. Lifelong interest in the law, but not a lawyer.

EDIT: I took a quick look at the bill and it more or less leads with this

“Conversion practice” means (subject to subsection (3)) any conduct carried out by a person towards an individual with the intention of—

My emphasis. Given that posts online, books, discussions etc. aren't obviously conduct towards an individual then it's hard to see how it applies to any of those things. Maybe there are other clauses I'm not seeing though.

MyAmpleSheep · 11/07/2026 23:35

Sounds to me like 'someone' could accuse his colleague for trying to make him question his trans identity

I've never seen a GC person (on this website) ever suggest that someone who identifies as trans shouldn't do so, or is wrong to do so. Pretty much everyone here I've ever read says, "Identify as whomsoever or whatsoever you like, but you're still a man and should stay out of the women's facilities."

Once you get to "identify as whatsoever you like" you're not trying to make anyone question their identity.

Similarly, the fact that I don't treat or recognize you (a man) as a woman, is distinct to saying I don't treat you as having a trans identity, and even that isn't the same as trying to convince you that you don't have a trans identity.

The bill talks about belief in transgender identity or sexual orientation. It doesn't say you can't try to convince people they're not a man or a woman, which is a belief in their own sex.

Yes, son, I accept that you're transgender, but you're still a boy, not a girl. Doesn't seem to be restricted under the act.

So, not seeing the danger, myself, yet.

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 23:48

IDenyTransExistence · 11/07/2026 22:02

I have had a dig through most of her source material.

Really not seeing that level of the spreadsheet would have come via FoI but did give them smoke to then go looking for the fire.

7 health and safety incidents raised by trans identifying people in 2023 and 7/10 complaints upheld in moderation. Not quite the level of granularity the shroom gave.

Have to say, I did not see that answer letter before, because the website refused access to my browser... so you're right, Tink must have had some additional information from somewhere. But the fact that neither AL or NC tried to get the evidence thrown out indicates imo that he must have got it in a legal way.
And if Defra were willing or obliged to give that much information to LB, I suppose Tink as an employee preparing material for an ET would probably have rights to more?

What I also find interesting is the date of the letter, December 2024 - is that the date of the reply, not the request? By that time the proceedings were well underway, I think the original claim was brought a year earlier at the end of 2023.
So it's interesting that the case now seems to rely so heavily on material that people seemed to not think they needed to begin with, and only went looking for much later 🤔.
The claimant's case really seems like a work in progress with many changes of strategy/personnel/direction to it.

Hyenana · 11/07/2026 23:59

SinnerBoy · 11/07/2026 23:09

Hyenana · Today 18:03

I didn't think of if immediately, perhaps it dint occur to Naomi soon enough and once admitted to evidence, it was a fait accompli?

Perhaps she may be able to question it in December? I am not a lawyer...

Both AL and NC? I find it hard to believe that two barristers would not think to ask that question.
Also, I'm not sure the existence of the Shoom was a surprise to anyone, I would have to look at the TT thread again but wasn't the reason it wasn't part of the bundle that they could not find a way to print it out, but they had referred to it before?