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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 8

515 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 10:44

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-7

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 15:59

MyAmpleSheep · Today 15:15

I don't think ST is the only person driving this case - or even much involved at all. We already heard ED's testimony about how she (ED) became convinced the only way forward was to go to tribunal - as though it was her decision alone.

If ST's support in this case evaporates he may feel the stress is too much to continue. He is already on sick leave.

Absolutely re ED, it was very revealing.

ACertainSenseOfLiberty · Today 16:01

Neither ST or ED strike me as the sort of people to admit they might have got something wrong. Even admitting someone else might have a point seems like a step too far for either to contemplate.

SidewaysOtter · Today 16:03

WTF? All these threads, all those questions and all those days and they STILL ran out of time and we're back for Round Two in December? Talk about process as punishment, poor Elspeth.

Still, on the up side I've learned that Del Amitri are still going. So that's something.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · Today 16:07

myladydisdainisyetliving · Today 15:11

Does anyone seriously think ST would withdraw from this case? All the evidence to date suggests ST is single minded in ST’s conviction of ST’s position, and in the conviction of ST’s interpretation of the SEEN raison d’être. ST does not view the world the same way we do.

I also think ST will not have heard the same things we did from CA’s evidence, and will not have concluded like we did that the longer HH went on, the more the evidence strengthened the cases of the respondent and the intervenor. ST will not have had a change of heart on hearing CA explain her understanding of SEEN.

The only reason I could see ST withdrawing would be because they were unable to proceed, eg financially. But if ST really was under financial constraints, surely HH would have been aware and done a lot more to wrap this up in time?

How about a scenario where ST, at the last minute, claims the case has caused him to suffer transphobic bullying and his mental health has suffered as a result after realising that he is likely to do more harm than good for his cause?

Tallisker · Today 16:08

Mmmnotsure · Today 15:36

It's okay. Round here it's all twenty-somethings with man buns going back to vinyl records. You're cool again.

Not sure about the ‘again’. I think this is my first time Grin

SylvanMoon · Today 16:22

MyAmpleSheep · Today 15:15

I don't think ST is the only person driving this case - or even much involved at all. We already heard ED's testimony about how she (ED) became convinced the only way forward was to go to tribunal - as though it was her decision alone.

If ST's support in this case evaporates he may feel the stress is too much to continue. He is already on sick leave.

Is ST still on sick leave or has he started a new run of sick leave? How does that work? I thought he was off for 6 months on full pay until it was about to be dropped to half-pay and then tried to go off on emergency leave (or whatever it was called) and was given a brief period, but no more. I assumed he was back at work. When and on what basis has he gone off again and how is the CS tolerating such abuse by an employee? And if he's not currently on sick leave, would they grant it to him now because of the delay? If so, his employers are as mad as him.

Justabaker · Today 17:08

Hyenana · Today 15:31

What I find amazing about this case is the contrast between the high legal ambition of trying to relitigate Forstater, and the rather low ability of the claimant and his witness to convince anyone that they actually have a case.
Someone must have thought he was a good person to pursue (and finance) this test case with, but I fail to see what they saw in him. He's got a GRC, but that seems to be it.

'No Debate' has had some disastrous downstream consequences for the trans movement. They made significant societal gains through stealth, emotional blackmail, using the LGB as cover, a long running positive campaign in the arts & media.

ST, for example, learned that throwing mantrums, being testerical, using hyperbole as argument, quoting Stonewall law - got everything ST's heart desired. Entitlement on steroids. Allies like JH working to manipulate any all processes. Until it stopped working.

So, scale that entitlement up to the wider movement and it's 'strategic thinking'. Rather than take a cold hard look at seismic defeats like Forstater, Higgs and FWS they have consistently downplayed and minimised the consequences. At least in what they tell the rank and file activists and tame press. I think they are, to a degree, living in the past with a tame press (actual activists) and many politicians in their pockets. It's hard to win if you refuse to actually name the problem. For example, they haven't realised that the bananrama defence doesn't really work unless you have some egregious behaviour. Will do a separate post on this.

The wider TRA movement and it's money folks may think this is a good case with a sympathetic claimant. But they've not been in a fair fight for quite some time, so they are struggling to make a realistic assessment of the case. Like the GLP challenge of the EHRC interim guidance, doomed from the word go even though the judge essentially re-wrote their pleadings for them in the initial court appearance.

In my professional life, we had a truism - you strengthened your arguments by seeking out someone with the opposite view. We called it 'sharpening the sword'. The TRA movement avoided exactly that situation.

I'm not a fan of the judge, but paraphrasing Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady 'I think he's got it'. The C has a weak case, further weakened by some procedural errors - the principal vs agent ruling was significant. If I (IANAL) was summing up C's case - you might criticise the Rs as reactive not proactive in their attempts to 'protect trans people' from the expression of gender critical thought. And may have been dilatory in their processes and responses to grievances. How much sand did the C throw into the process machine? Hard to say.

The SHOOM is turning into a legendary self inflicted wound for the C. (How did it fall into the C's hands???). Not in the bundle, late introduction, less than adequate vetting, HH did not have 'command' of it.

CA was a magnificent witness for Rs and NB was not bad either. The Rs are hiding no one - which is often the problem in gender critical cases. We have a saying in TT - there's often an angry enby or trans in there who calls up the witch hunt and leaves smoking guns all over the documentary record. That person is never called to give evidence. They are such a liability (think Mridul Wadhwa) and would totally befoul the nest and crap all over the case that even an activist barrister would shudder at the thought.

I have a question for the Hive Mind though. Why is this case not attracting press interest? Would appreciate thoughts on this.

I cannot see harassment or even indirect discrimination in this case, even with the Judge putting his thumb on the scales and the Panel member who seems to be a bit of TRA.

(I'm very worried about the conversion therapy bill BTW and will it bring back 'no debate' by stealth).

My Fair Lady Realization GIF
MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:18

Why would the conversion practices bill be relevant to workplace expression of GC thought? What am I missing?

SinnerBoy · Today 17:28

IDenyTransExistence · Today 10:23

I have been thinking about your comment about the spreadsheet; I see that @Justabaker has had the same thought:

How did Stinks get his hands on SHOOM beforehand? Has he any rights to it? Is it a GDPR, or confidentiality breach?

Justabaker · Today 17:28

Broadly speaking, it's a thought crime bill. Might be used to try and criminalise 'My Body is Me' for example.

FarriersGirl · Today 17:47

MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:18

Why would the conversion practices bill be relevant to workplace expression of GC thought? What am I missing?

There is a good podcast with Helen Joyce and Dennis Kavanagh which opens up the possibility that this bill is a trojan horse and will silence discussion in many settings.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFY2Uwvxr-U

Hyenana · Today 17:51

MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:18

Why would the conversion practices bill be relevant to workplace expression of GC thought? What am I missing?

Dennis Kavanagh has a lengthy thread on his various concerns regarding this bill - the relevance for businesses is for example mentioned in his talk with Helen Joyce, and in the post below that.
Sounds to me like 'someone' could accuse his colleague for trying to make him question his trans identity, and his employer for not having stopped that colleague from doing that.

But you're the lawyer, do you think that would be possible?

https://nitter.poast.org/Jebadoo2/status/2070900767272083787#m

Hyenana · Today 17:59

Justabaker · Today 17:08

'No Debate' has had some disastrous downstream consequences for the trans movement. They made significant societal gains through stealth, emotional blackmail, using the LGB as cover, a long running positive campaign in the arts & media.

ST, for example, learned that throwing mantrums, being testerical, using hyperbole as argument, quoting Stonewall law - got everything ST's heart desired. Entitlement on steroids. Allies like JH working to manipulate any all processes. Until it stopped working.

So, scale that entitlement up to the wider movement and it's 'strategic thinking'. Rather than take a cold hard look at seismic defeats like Forstater, Higgs and FWS they have consistently downplayed and minimised the consequences. At least in what they tell the rank and file activists and tame press. I think they are, to a degree, living in the past with a tame press (actual activists) and many politicians in their pockets. It's hard to win if you refuse to actually name the problem. For example, they haven't realised that the bananrama defence doesn't really work unless you have some egregious behaviour. Will do a separate post on this.

The wider TRA movement and it's money folks may think this is a good case with a sympathetic claimant. But they've not been in a fair fight for quite some time, so they are struggling to make a realistic assessment of the case. Like the GLP challenge of the EHRC interim guidance, doomed from the word go even though the judge essentially re-wrote their pleadings for them in the initial court appearance.

In my professional life, we had a truism - you strengthened your arguments by seeking out someone with the opposite view. We called it 'sharpening the sword'. The TRA movement avoided exactly that situation.

I'm not a fan of the judge, but paraphrasing Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady 'I think he's got it'. The C has a weak case, further weakened by some procedural errors - the principal vs agent ruling was significant. If I (IANAL) was summing up C's case - you might criticise the Rs as reactive not proactive in their attempts to 'protect trans people' from the expression of gender critical thought. And may have been dilatory in their processes and responses to grievances. How much sand did the C throw into the process machine? Hard to say.

The SHOOM is turning into a legendary self inflicted wound for the C. (How did it fall into the C's hands???). Not in the bundle, late introduction, less than adequate vetting, HH did not have 'command' of it.

CA was a magnificent witness for Rs and NB was not bad either. The Rs are hiding no one - which is often the problem in gender critical cases. We have a saying in TT - there's often an angry enby or trans in there who calls up the witch hunt and leaves smoking guns all over the documentary record. That person is never called to give evidence. They are such a liability (think Mridul Wadhwa) and would totally befoul the nest and crap all over the case that even an activist barrister would shudder at the thought.

I have a question for the Hive Mind though. Why is this case not attracting press interest? Would appreciate thoughts on this.

I cannot see harassment or even indirect discrimination in this case, even with the Judge putting his thumb on the scales and the Panel member who seems to be a bit of TRA.

(I'm very worried about the conversion therapy bill BTW and will it bring back 'no debate' by stealth).

Yes, maybe I'm not able to really understand this case from the TA side.
Also, it really must have looked a lot more promising in 2023 when it started, and since then the sunken cost fallacy might have contributed to keeping it on the road.

By the way, TransLucent have started judicial review proceedings against the EHRC Code, which after the GLP's last 'moral victory' is also not something I would have seen coming, so 🤷🏻‍♀️

Hyenana · Today 18:03

SinnerBoy · Today 17:28

IDenyTransExistence · Today 10:23

I have been thinking about your comment about the spreadsheet; I see that @Justabaker has had the same thought:

How did Stinks get his hands on SHOOM beforehand? Has he any rights to it? Is it a GDPR, or confidentiality breach?

Why didn't the judge, or AL or NC ask those questions when it came to admitting it as evidence?

Rightsraptor · Today 18:07

SylvanMoon · Today 16:22

Is ST still on sick leave or has he started a new run of sick leave? How does that work? I thought he was off for 6 months on full pay until it was about to be dropped to half-pay and then tried to go off on emergency leave (or whatever it was called) and was given a brief period, but no more. I assumed he was back at work. When and on what basis has he gone off again and how is the CS tolerating such abuse by an employee? And if he's not currently on sick leave, would they grant it to him now because of the delay? If so, his employers are as mad as him.

He was at the ET every day I believe. Do you get 'Special Leave' for that?

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