Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 6

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-5

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

It's like trying to read reddit.

The use of the word 'manifest' in this context always amuses me. They'll be a sudden cloud of smoke and an opinion will form.

These 'T 'colleagues are a super privileged bunch, aren't they? Everything has to be run past them, according to HH.

I am liking the cut of Caroline Aires' jib.

From TT:

HH Assessment of impact isn't just about whether something is popular. You didn't consider potential harm to t colleagues?
CA I was aware - I believed - there was a lot of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of GC beliefs that caused alarm and distress among t communities

CA My aim was to be clear couldn't discriminate against GC people and work towards understanding and peaceful co existence. i wasn't optimistic we could get more than that. Realised we couldn't even get that. <me - you don't say>
J Re misunderstanding of GC - how were you proposing to tackle that

I was aware - I believed - there was a lot of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of GC beliefs that caused alarm and distress among t communities.

Misunderstanding and misrepresentation caused wilfully by the TRA lobby!

Do TRAs really believe we are allowed to have our belief but we aren't allowed to even utter one word about it at work?

I really do hope you sang that to the tune of Sister Sledge's Lost in Music?

CA. Yes. At this stage just getting across to people the notion that GC belief protected
HH Did you discuss with AM/EW re not on a platform of 25k people
CA Difference between holding and manifesting belief, but I thought must be acceptable to express you hold a belief.
CA Not wrong for someone to say this is my belief, if the belief is protected.

So CA was worried about even saying GC a PC. <shakes head>

This is what happens when you over indulge. A firm NO usually stops this with toddlers.

Caught in a trap, no turning back...

Steady now.

From TT:

CA List of LGBT+ champions, network leads - intended to discuss with them and see how we could take things forward
J What forward?
CA The fact that people holding GC beliefs in Defra meant not a threat to t people. Reassurance was the key

J Did you think feeling of threat was cos of misunderstanding of GC beliefs.
CA Yes - cos commonly held view - comments c erasing t people etc, my understanding was GC people not trying to do this things and since SEEn formed I haven;t seen them trying to do that.

And round and round and round we go.

Talking about reality is 'manifesting a belief' that hurts some people 's feelings. Because they don't like reality.

So we must all consult and assess and write policy and consult and assess and write policy...

And spend god knows how much money in court trying to square a circle.

🙄

That's a great name for a hospital based Mike Oldfield tribute act.

That was more like it......😆

I've started a new thread in case I get carried away and don't notice when this is full:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-7

Go Caroline. You've been reading and listening and understand it all. You've got it nailed.

Good grief, is there anything that doesn't cause 'harm' to T colleagues?

Colour of stapler? Exact fill of coffee cup?

Ffs, all this tacit genuflecting proves the whole point against C's case by itself. You'd think HH would realise this and stop making the C look bad, particularly since C may have a point on a couple of fronts.

J Did you think feeling of threat was cos of misunderstanding of GC beliefs.
CA Yes - cos commonly held view - comments c erasing t people etc, my understanding was GC people not trying to do this things and since SEEn formed I haven;t seen them trying to do that.

I like this woman a lot! That's a brave thing to say in that tribunal!

From TT:

CA I'm a bit of a rarity, with contacts with people on both sides of the debate. Was basing my beliefs on what I knew c GC beliefs at the time and I haven't seen SEEN trying to erase T people or go.

Debate outside Defra, society, entrenched views on both side - have been a lot of misunderstanding. I understand T people believe about wanting to erase t people - they have been told this, - but I don't see that.
HH This is your view

CA Based on conversations with people. As an EDI specialist having listened to debates and knew what was going on.
HH T colleagues in Defra have had to overcome considerable difficulties in being accepted in society
CA Yes
HH Would they not be the people to know c GC belief,

<personal note - it seems to be that CA has been climbing mountains>

CA teaching the judge a thing or two about "seeing both sides" of the argument.

CA Yes - cos commonly held view - comments c erasing t people etc, my understanding was GC people not trying to do this things and since SEEn formed I haven;t seen them trying to do that.

Because we aren't!

CA I'm a bit of a rarity, with contacts with people on both sides of the debate. Was basing my beliefs on what I knew c GC beliefs at the time and I haven't seen SEEN trying to erase T people or go.

Well she did, I expect she will be ostracised now.

CA's problem is that atheists in this religion don't have to do anything. They are intolerable merely by daring to exist.

T colleagues in Defra have had to overcome considerable difficulties in being accepted in society CA Yes HH Would they not be the people to know c GC belief,

What, people who believe you only have to grow your hair and put on a spinny skirt to make you change sex?