Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 6

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-5

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

HH Many women have done things around women's rights. These names are provocative by AM

Of course AM is going to mention those Women, it's directly to do with his network.

Would it be provocative if the LBGT group posted about a prominent T person?

We have 'posh' people in Liverpool too you know 😉 Paul O'Grady was from the Wirral - and he out-scoused most scousers.

From TT:

HH You were approached by EW wanting to post her views on Y. As consequence you gave advice to senior managers and subsequently to EW c what she could post.
CA Long time ago. EW also spoke with Torah who was leading on EDI issues in NE. Torah spoke to me

we discussed
HH Your advice was sought cos of Defra oversight re EDI/Y
CA Yes, well, EDI generally
HH [to doc] You were developing additional guidance for Y re parameters. You were talking about here c GC views. And you recommend number of next steps

CA Yes
HH Re Y and V Engage and your role. Sept 22 Defra made draft of communication principles
CA Yes
HH [to doc] You make clear this doc - draft POC - was meant to be broadly universal. Referring to Y. Any other form communication
CA Intention was they would cover all

HH Many women have done things around women's rights. These names are provocative by AM

Fuck off.

A new and annoying feature. Means I have to do an extra click with my poor RSI affected hand.

J concerned about managing the risk of reaction who's reaction
NB the work force

Yes, I thought ‘the work force’ reply was a bit disingenuous. As if everyone who worked at Defra would complain about SEEN.

J’s response is to ask: can you tell me in terms of recommendation to review decision to review formation of SEEN, did you go to the Cab Off and ask them to reconsider

To me this suggests he thinks that they ought to have reconsidered. Why else would he ask this. If he doesn’t like NC for being uppity, it’s not a stretch to suggest he might not approve of a whole network of uppity people l largely of the female kind.

Whereas if you had married someone from Ellesmere Port you'd have married a plastic Scouser.

It's about an hour from Merseyside to Leeds on the M62

Sidenote - 90 minutes to 2 hours, depending on traffic. We drove it regularly when DC were at uni.

@ProfLargofesse Before the ET starts the panel meets in private, as far as I understand it, to discuss case management having read the documents. I suspect that something has been discussed in that meeting which has set the J on this course of behaviour. What could it be that has taken him to this extreme position where he is assuming that NC is being emotive purely and simply to be emotive and assumes there is no logic to her questioning other than that. That she somehow is geared up to provoking emotional responses rather than working to expose the bias and lack of logic in the general reactiveness to SEEN.

Perhaps he is terrified of Pete the Plumber making an appearance. 👀

From TT:

communication platforms, Y was important one, also Slido {?}
HH Universal -you mean Defra, ALBs and non dept bodies
J Not for this witness
HH Sorry - but generally your understanding
CA yes
HH Nov 2022 Defra launched key POC for Y and moderation. Y migrated to VE in 2023

and Defra set rules of engagement
CA yes
HH This is guidance for all Defra orgs and channels on VEngage
CA Information for all VE groups for managers and asset owners.
HH Rules for group owners - responsible for day to day ops
J Not sure about this. We've seen this.

HH Seen's policies in Defra managed along these policies
CA Yes and all other networks/employess
HH You drafted guidance for how to handles complatints
CA Decided as this all new to people would be helpful to email LM as explanation re removing posts etc

Yes, the M60 around Greater Manchester is a nightmare. I got lost in Oldham once.

Blimey. Just want to say I can tell the difference between Liverpool and Leeds, thanks. Very different. Despite my Southern ears.

<sidenote - is it just me? MN appears to be truncating the display of long posts with a "see more" clickable thingy. I'm on my laptop accessing via the web>

@DauntlessDamson Totally Pete- and plumberphobic.

That would be the Wrong Side of the Wirral accordng to late m-i-l 😂
Calling her any kind of scouser resulted in a lot of stomping about and proclaiming about Cheshire.
Anyway, I digress.

I don’t like it! Maybe if the post run to one full page, but it’s coming up for even relatively short posts 😠

I see the new feature has already gone tits up, it is doing it on one line posts too. FFS leave it alone Mumsnet.

Even women's names can be provocative, it seems.

Oldham - 'home of the tubular bandage', if I remember rightly from my one and only visit to the place

No. They updated a few minutes ago!

Tis annoying my scroll thumb.

Well, there's a canal...

I think that is undoubtedly true. We can't really have any doubt that the panel discussed NC's habit of using analogy and Pete. They clearly failed to understand that the point she is making is there is nothing to distinguish a man who says he is a woman from a man.

This makes even more sense when you consider J reaction to stating more than once the idea that TWAM. Again a visceral reaction to 'language' which felt completely uncalled for. If, however, you are trained to find the statement that TWAM offensive then you would react as J did. However, I don't feel he would have reacted if HH or NB said it, which confirms the sense that he has somehow prejudged NC as being inherently prejudicial in all her utterings, to the extent he can no longer see the logic of the journey her questioning takes.

From TT:

CA We were getting complaints c posts and also c fact SEEN existed so drafted standard complaints re those
HH This is the generic response you drafted for complaints. Sent to SMcNally
CA Yes
J You sent on 22 Nov ahead of moderation meeting
CA Yes. That's right.

HH Re when complaints made and who responsible for replying .. p 500
HH Complaint of Y post on 29/22 from ? in NE. Complaint made to Defra business support. Was forwarded to Sally Williams in EAg - because AM had written a post and he was employee of EAg

HH Sally forward to Erin
CA Erin was manager of EAg EDI team
HH Clear Sally discussed post with number of people including you and BT and you didn't think needed removal
CA Yes
HH and you drafted response
CA yes
HH You and other senior people in Defra participated in

They would have had no issue if IWD post had been about 10 men claiming to be women. Well maybe 9 and a token 'cis' woman. Got to look fair after all.

Was just going to mention this, it's shit, isn't it? Big thumbs-down.