Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 6

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-5

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Bipedal of the masculine flavour?

I've been explaining to DH what's going on as I'm sat here with my headphones on muttering at the laptop and he wanted to know what gives. I gave him a very brief overview and he said "ah, the referee's a homer".

Which I initially misheard as homo but he explained the sports context of the ref favouring the home team during football. Couldn't disagree.

With the way the judge is behaving towards SEEN should his decision eventually come down firmly on the side of Defra the whole of the GI community will collectively spontaneously combust on the day of the judgement.

From TT:

GI has successfully undermined the culture of impartiality
NB I don't know that

NC back to page 125 (CA overview) you've agreed accurate and fair minded, says DEFRA policies have tended to follow policies advocated by LGBT+ networks and they take exception to any expression of GC views.
NB it's a fair summary

NC so DEFRA has adopted GI
NB I don't think I can say we have adopted GI, CA's summary is fair but there's been no formal adoption, our approach is framed by CS code, what CA is framing is our sort of practice

One measured group of the bimodal division gifted in certain other aspects than the other measured group of the bimodal division?

It wouldn't be impartial to elaborate on which aspects, soz.

From TT:

NC I'm not suggesting you formally adopted it, no announcement that DEFRA is a GI org, but has adopted it by pronoun rituals, the holy days of trans calendar, flags in email signatures, etc
AL is this by policy or as decisions made by individuals
J can you just summarise what you mean by culture

NC the trans holy days
HH I don't think that is helpful
J days of observance
NC days, weeks, months of observance, flags, pronouns
J and q from that
NC my suggestion is that this ideology has gone deep into the culture of the org

Good point by Naomi there.......GI has succeeded in undermining the culture of imaprtiality - even when staff such as NB try to stay impartial - because the shoe is always on the foot of the GI side, and it is other people's rights which have to be balanced against them. GI in the workplace causes everything to be reactive in response to its domination.

Even the judge is displaying this domination himself in bending over backwards to be as sensitive as possible; trying to moderate or control the language or words that can be used.

NC the trans holy days
HH I don't think that is helpful
J days of observance

😁

I’m now picturing James Grout banging on about “northern common sense” ….

Go Naomi, Go Naomi, Go Naomi, Go Naomi

From TT:

NB it has been embraced by the organisation
NC prep doc for EDI event for senior CS, we can see, I suggest that you (collectively) well aware that there would be plenty of resistance at senior level to existence of SEEN

NB I don't agree with that, what I saw was concern from senior leaders on how they navigated this, invited to come and help these leaders lead with neutrality
NC you knew there was a problem with leaders inculturated by GI for years
NB its a challenge now

NC intro to Bal's talk 'legal reason for existence of SEEN' doesn't that indicate anticipation of pushback from senior leaders
NB no, we wanted to help senior leaders understand why decision had been taken, and help drive neutrality through their teams
J as I understand that sentence, the context was the position that SEEN was able to exist and why

I fear for that young lady's sacro-iliacs. It shouldn't be allowed. Please won't someone intervene and take her pom-poms away, for her own protection!

"It's a challenge now"

My sides, ow

NC my suggestion is that this ideology has gone deep into the culture of the org
NB it has been embraced by the organisation

And it shows.

DEFRA may not have formally adopted GI as the benchmark, but in effect they have done......no matter how balanced NB strives to be in her role.

From TT:

that might offend other employees, but nevertheless it must be able to exist, and to support free speech, that's the context
NB yes
NC we see presentation of Bal on 585, can you read last para, over to next page,
NB yes

NC Bal talks about real distress of trans people, but it's the distress of people who have been encouraged to believe for years that any dissent from their views is bigotry
NB can you repeat the qs
NC any dissent from their belief system is bigotry and deserves to be silenced

She is also a woman who managed to find a new purpose to her career and become somewhat of a celebrity in her late 50s, while he went into retirement as a judge doing low level ETs. I wonder if that plays a part (pure speculation of course).

J as I understand that sentence, the context was the position that SEEN was able to exist and why that might offend other employees, but nevertheless it must be able to exist, and to support free speech, that's the context

Well at least we now know he knows that.

Good question by AL there.....was this a formal organisational adoption or one made by specific individuals within the organisation.

Nobody has responded to it yet, have they?

From TT:

NB I'm not sure I can answer that. There was a set of concerns that trans colleague had, I don't know what they are born out of other than distress at a set of beliefs that are different and counter to their own.
NC can I put it more plainly it's the real distress of bullies encountering the word no in an org that has indulged them for years

HH theres a number of things in that question
NB what we were seeing was a reaction to a decision made by CS and DEFRA about SEEN and they did not agree with that decision

Take 2... And.. ACTION

NC Bal talks about real distress of trans people, but it's the distress of people who have been encouraged to believe for years that any dissent from their views is bigotry
NB can you repeat the qs
NC any dissent from their belief system is bigotry and deserves to be silenced

From TT:

It was a decision that people were distressed by in the gender community.
NC thank you, I have no further questions.

Holy Days of Obligation 😇

I was hoping NC was going to say 'what about the distress of women back in the day when DEFRA became inculturated by GI '
but she's going for the 'raising false hopes and beliefs in rights they never had in trans employees' line instead. Fair nuff...

NC thank you, I have no further questions.

Love Naomi. But love those words more.