Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 6

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-5

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

I have wondered if the judge is more aware of the in and outs of the GI/GC debate than it might appear, and that is why he has such an aversion to going down certain "rabbit holes". If that is the case, then perhaps he is trying to keep things on track and look at the legal points, rather than getting lost in the weeds of "what is a woman"? That is my optimistic take. A slightly more pessimistic view is that he thinks NC is being unnecessarily blunt and "unkind". Maybe it's a bit of both.

so do get in touch'

That's it? That was all that changed? From v 1 to v2?

That took a few seconds of 'whaaaaaat?' before I got it. Clever and quick of you, fOB😄
AND c&p-ing at the same time!

It's very confusing - did NC say something about hairstyles that TT did not capture, or did the J decide to provide a 'helpful' analogy here?
My impression is he found TWAM even as just a reference to what gc people believe too crass to say?!

From TT:

NB EDW would have feelings about the post taken down
NC there was a reasonable post and then a torrent of hostile reactions, there was bullying from the trans side and allies
NB I'm uncomfortable with the term victim blaming
NC are you able to agree that the post was taken down

because of the chain of messages, increasingly personal that resulted
NB I agree that the post was taken down because of the messages against EDW but I can't know her feelings
NC you are a senior HR professional
NB very senio
NC you should be able to recognise bullying in the

workplace
NB I can describe what bullying is, but I can't say how someone might feel
J NC, these are very similar to the qs you asked yesterday about why post was taken down
NC lets go to some of the reactions then, takes to page numbers
J these are comments aren't they, I've

been saying posts
NC yes they are comments
[reading]

I would love to see the comments under EDW's post.

NC email from Carli Malling (sp) saying the following Y post by EDW has been removed for violating code of conduct,

That really shitty because it was the comments by others, not the actual post, that was the reason for deletion.

< preens > I do have a script that is helping with the c&p (eliminating the "c&p the text of one tweet at a time" part that was setting my RSI off)

I think it's for the benefit of the panel members who may be lay people.

Yes, I think that is a fair assessment. NC is an activist when it comes to this issue, not just a neutral barrister trying to do their best and most professional job on behalf of their client

J NC, these are very similar to the qs you asked yesterday about why post was taken down

Yet the same judge failed to notice HH asking the same question over and over and over again for fucking hours yesterday.

From TT:

Still reading.

NB how far
NC up to 167, don't need to read in detail, just glance at them and remind yourself what they are, thank you. What we see there, we don't have initial responses to first post, comments we have start with a post by Tara W to try and damp down comments, so we can guess

that initial comments were even more excitable.
NB yes
NC yes, everything we see are hostile comments from trans activist and allies and a few comments from management trying to damp things down
NB yes
NC in fact nothing from GC side at all
J so you saw this as hostile comments

well spotted - I had missed that - it should not have been let stand that EDW had posted something that violated the CofC.

@fanOfBen

If you have RSI, stop doing it, it's not worth it.

I got RSI after the last time I did the C&P. It is so sore.

You are a star.

NC yes, everything we see are hostile comments from trans activist and allies and a few comments from management trying to damp things down
NB yes

Anyone been properly investigated, reprimanded, told to grow up for those comments? I'm betting not.

She still manages to do it in a way that is less one-sided and OTT than HH -
NC does her level best on behalf of her client while still allowing that there are strong feelings on both sides, and that everybody has rights, not just her 'side'.
That's a crucial difference between her and HH.

I am really careful about it, fear not. It only took me one session of doing it manually before I realised I needed help! I'm fine with the keyboard, so what I need to do is set things up so that I don't need to use the mouse, and at this point I basically only use the mouse to press the Post button. (I am pretty sure it wouldn't be hard to automate the whole process including posting periodically to MN, but I fear MNHQ wouldn't like it!)

@MarieDeGournay Sorry but

OMFG, this Judge

@ickky

From TT:

from gender ideology side (as NC uses that term) and nothing from GC side
NB yes
NC reads out post from Sarah Homer, supporting trans colleagues, right to live fully and freely in chosen gender, so a message of support from top of organisation
NB - well, she's the LBGTI champion

in DEFRA
NC she's very senior in her day job
NB chief exec
NC and in stating 'fully and freely in their gender' its a warning that anyone who objects to a TW in toilet, changing room or menopause group,
J we are not going to take sides in the gender ideology debate, you should

stop leading us to that point. The post says what it says,
NC it's what it implies
J we will not take sides
NC when thread was reinstated the following day, its unfairly neutral to describe the post as contentious
NB it was contentious
NC it was a neutral post, it was the

@myladydisdainisyetliving can I rescind my offer to C&P and let you take over? We've got a pool leak and it's gushing all over our garden, and a very excited 7 year old who was expecting to get in after school.

<Holds breath>

<clicks refresh repeatedly>

The judge is not the most intellectual is he; he likes things to be plain and simple and doesn't seem to have much emotional or intuitive intelligence, either, so he substitutes 'being kindly' instead.

No need to apologise, it's becoming obvious that 'OMFG, this Judge' can be validly posted anywhere at any time, he's bound to come up with a humdinger soon anyway🙄

Surely the whole point is that DEFRA was taking sides and not understanding law and that's what NC is trying to illustrate?