Why do some feminists oppose misogyny but support gender ideology?

[Doodwhatareyou]

I recently ended up in the man hating side of tiktok, which is a place I tend to be in agreement with. I’ve seen several women bravely battle stupid men in the comments who manage to reinforce everything being said.

I’ve seen a pattern though that these women, who seem to be very up on rules of misogyny, and aware of how problematic too many men are, usually have pronouns in their bio, and occasionally will complain about being bullied by terfs.

I’m baffled.

How can they be so up on patriarchal nonsense yet miss the fundamental misogyny in gender ideology. How can they deny the evidence that trans identified men are just as much of a problem for women if not more as they want women’s rights and spaces.

They can make endless videos about how hateful men are because of the way women are treated, and how women have to budge up and make room, yet trans identified men are women, and anyone who says otherwise is a massive bigot. I don’t understand.

My point was that the only people who can get pregnant that I know that consistently want to conceive are heterosexual women. Not lesbians. Definitely not the butch lesbians I know. And statistics say that it isnt of great interest to trans men either. Which to me makes sense..I don't know about you.

When you say you struggle with it, do you mean you know they do but don't understand why they do. Or you don't think many women actually do believe that?

Because my social media, especially since joining this site, has shown me that A LOT of women absolutely do believe trans women are women. The people most disbelieving seem to be American right winged men.

It doesn't matter, though. If some transmen want to get pregnant - and we know they exist - then all transmen need to retain their pregnancy-related rights.

I honestly can't believe that you think lesbians don't want to get pregnant

A LOT of women absolutely do believe trans women are women.

Can you explain how people change sex? Thanks.

As though not wanting to have a baby protects women from pregnancy.

And that's before you consider the assertion the suggestion that lesbians don't want to have children. Is this supposed to apply to all gay people?

I don’t. I think most people just go along with it because they want to be “progressive” IMO you can tell that most of those women don’t actually believe they are women by the fact that they don’t treat them like they treat other women ie the way they talk down to us, they fawn over them in an embarrassing way.

It turns my stomach when one of these men rocks up on a woman centred Facebook group or similar and then everything revolves around him posting gurning selfies, and any women who say they aren’t comfortable are forced out.

I dont think all lesbians want to get pregnant. I don't think as many lesbians want biological children as straight women.

Okay, I disagree. I think many women very much see them as women because they believe in gender identity.

Why?

We are well aware that patriarchal men on both the left and right are irritated when women say they need rights. Their primary concern is whether they are inconvenienced. Some men want to ban abortion. Some men want to pretend that there is no link between women's rights and the ability to control fertility. Potato, Potahato. Both routes arrive at the same destination. Women with no rights.

Well that would necessitate the inclusion of trans inclusive pregnancy care such as using gender neutral language. Especially if so many of them will be wanting to ideally use the maternity system.

Anyway. I am going to watch a film now. I will check back in tomorrow for replies.

They won't spontaneously abort if they are not addressed by the right pronoun.

They might however lose the baby if they are not recognised as adult female human beings, and thus granted all rights pertaining to women.

That’s fine, happy to disagree. I think it’s something people say but don’t really think about too deeply. Because saying “trans women are women” means that you believe any man can be a woman just because he says so, and that’s absurd. Nigella Farage, Donaldina Trump.

You're just repeating yourself now. You have nothing new to add.

Lurkers, this is it. This is all you get from the pseudo-feminists and the trans-identified males they champion. There is nothing else, just mantras and pigeon chess.

And other women believe that abortion and IVF should be banned because embryos have souls from conception.

You can sincerely believe in the concept of gender identity, but women will still need rights because of their sex.

I am very tolerant of the idea that different people have different beliefs.

I am less tolerant of the deliberate denial of the practical consequences of sex.

So that's literally anyone.

Anyone who decides they want to be a woman, can be a woman, according to that definition.

So the word looses all meaning.

Wouldn't it be useful to have language that refers simply to sex.

They cannot be feminists. As we've explained. Saying you are something doesn't mean you are that thing. Identifying as isn't being.

Feminism is not "everybodyism". It is about the rights of female people specifically (not male people who think they're females) and female liberation from patriarchy. Given that "trans" is literally patriarchy, it cannot be feminism. Feminism is about women, not men. Trans women are men.

And transactivism isn't "women's rights". It's men's rights. Don't you understand this?

Did you have any comment to make about the violently misogynist rhetoric of trans activists against "gc" feminists & women who stand up for their legal rights and women's sex based rights, by the way? If so, I seem to have missed your condemnation. It might've got lost with all the patronising, obfuscation and finger wagging.

Agreement (or lack thereof) is a red herring, I'm afraid. In order for it to be a valid definition it needs to be non-circular.

If you think "It's anyone who identifies as a woman" could be a valid definition of 'a woman', consider the definition of 'a woman' in that sentence, and try replacing 'a woman' with its definition:
"It's anyone who identifies as anyone who identifies as a woman."

And again ... and again ... and again ... for ever:

"It's anyone who identifies as anyone who identifies as anyone who identifies as anyone who identifies as anyone who ..." and so on without end.

Do you see now, in the light of this "without end", how your "It's anyone who identifies as a woman" could not be a valid definition?

Well, I'm a UK left wing woman, with a background in UK material-reality based feminism and tbh, it seems to me that any woman who genuinely believes that trans women are literally women is not particularly smart. She doesn't know the history of her own rights in her own country, is therefore a bit gullible and easily led and has let misogynists tell her what "feminism" is. She's gaslit herself. Bit sad really. But it's quite common. As we said, education about women's rights was undermined, deliberately in my opinion, in the late 80s/early 90s as part of the post-feminist or rather, anti-feminist movement.

Either that or she knows trans women aren't women but she's pretending because she has seen that not to can lead to the kind of hatred, lies, social ostracism and death and rape threats we see commonly from transactivists and their enablers (including some other women who like to enforce it) towards any women who question the sexism of the ideology and dare to say no.

Nice try at equating us (mostly left wing women) with "right wing American men" though. You don't know much about the long history of women's rights and feminism in the UK, do you? Have you ever considered educating yourself a bit more on it instead of being disingenuous on here?

Yep. As I said many genderists haven’t thought through how absurd a belief that is.

And if we buy into this idea, then we supposedly don't know who anyone is until and unless they tell us.

We don't know if the person chatting us up is a man or a woman, so we don't know whether to flirt back or not.

We don't know if the baby-sitter, or the adult carer, we're hiring is a man or a woman, so we can't properly safeguard.

We don't know if the person having worrying chest symptoms is a man or a woman, never mind that heart attacks don't manifest the same way in men or women.

Hell, we can't even know if the person with the round belly who is hemorrhaging between the legs is a man or a woman, so we can't tell the medics on the phone what is going on so they can properly prepare.

Except of course we know all those things, because we know who is male or female, and thus who is a man or a woman. Pretending otherwise is so absurd.