Why do some feminists oppose misogyny but support gender ideology?

[Doodwhatareyou]

I recently ended up in the man hating side of tiktok, which is a place I tend to be in agreement with. I’ve seen several women bravely battle stupid men in the comments who manage to reinforce everything being said.

I’ve seen a pattern though that these women, who seem to be very up on rules of misogyny, and aware of how problematic too many men are, usually have pronouns in their bio, and occasionally will complain about being bullied by terfs.

I’m baffled.

How can they be so up on patriarchal nonsense yet miss the fundamental misogyny in gender ideology. How can they deny the evidence that trans identified men are just as much of a problem for women if not more as they want women’s rights and spaces.

They can make endless videos about how hateful men are because of the way women are treated, and how women have to budge up and make room, yet trans identified men are women, and anyone who says otherwise is a massive bigot. I don’t understand.

But no matter how gender nonconforming someone is, at no point do they actually change sex.

No offence, but you have been told a zillion times gender & sex are not the same thing. Is it because you can't or won't comprehend this?

And don't lie. You people are the last one's to accept males in feminine regalia whether they say they are women or not.

Your next comment about "boomers" and how they'll all be dead soon indicates that you're too young to remember the 70s and 80s, when gender nonconformity was everywhere, in a way it no longer is now. And who were those gender nonconforming people? That's right, the people you now disparagingly call "boomers".

I'm sure lots of todays boomers have 'colourful' liberal pasts. But what separates true liberals from transitory one's is they don't subscribe to the liberty for me & none for thee school of ethics.

In terms of increasing social liberties, there's always going to be generational differences. That you are attempting to hold up the seventies & eighties as some sort of ethical limit in social liberties only betrays the human condition of being out of touch….aka booerism.

You can think that, but it won't make any difference to the fact that male trans inclusive feminism is a branch of meninism and Mens Rights Movement, and therefore, people who subscribe to it are not feminist and are in fact, meninist and anti-feminism. End of story.

trans inclusive feminism

What you mean is male inclusive feminism.

And that, is an oxymoron.

Ok so you accept people can’t change sex then that’s a start.

Men are men and can wear whatever and do gender non conforming activities and they are still the same sex.

Broaden your mind from fixing on a narrow stereotypical set of clothes or activities for each sex. Especially when it comes to children. A girl with an interest in cars is still a girl, and a boy in ballet is just a boy.

No offence, but you have been told a zillion times gender & sex are not the same thing. Is it because you can't or won't comprehend this?

I was trying to explain this to you, because you don't seem to understand this.

If sex and gender are different, why do people who identify as a different gender alter their bodies to resemble the opposite sex?

And don't lie. You people are the last one's to accept males in feminine regalia whether they say they are women or not.

I'm not lying. I don't care what anyone wears. Men in dresses, fine. Men adding fake tits and pretending to be women, not fine.

But what separates true liberals from transitory one's is they don't subscribe to the liberty for me & none for thee school of ethics.

I have no idea what this means.

In terms of increasing social liberties, there's always going to be generational differences.

Except they've now decreased, with labels on everything where they didn't exist before.

you are attempting to hold up the seventies & eighties as some sort of ethical limit in social liberties

No, I'm not. Try reading my posts properly before replying.

@Baileyoniceif sex and gender are not the same thing (totally agree) why is there any question that men, who can't change sex, should have access to women's single sex spaces and services?

Gender is totally irrelevant to that point.

No, equal rights for women were hard won and fought for, and of course, many women around the world still do not have equal rights in law ( and. it is they that could be said to live under 'a patriarchy' if one has to use that term).

When people are confined to specific roles and strict dress codes (. including men) - without any room for personal inclination they are unable to express their full range of potential, preferences or inclinations. That is why one of the early groups for cross dressing men was named 'Full Personality Expression' - to allow men to express their socially restricted/suppressed 'feminine' aspects.

This suppression and even shaming was also something that was challenged by the gay rights movement. Some men are naturally quite 'feminine' in their expressions and mannerisms and others are more 'masculine' - but most people are a mixture of preferences and inclinations. Gay men are still very much men, though.....even if feminine or dressed in drag.Though one obvious general difference between the sexes relates to the sex drive and its expression.....and any time spent in the gay male club/sauna scene will confirm this.

The reasons monkeys don't have human rights is because they are not human; though human beings have also come up with the concept of 'animal rights' - but creatures only have these courtesy of the human beings who came up with concept - if they have any at all. The more well developed cognitive function in human beings is what allows us to engage with theoretical ideas and concepts such as 'rights' and 'equality'.

I'm not under any 'delsuions' when i state that the basis for sex is chromosomal in origin, determined at conception, and that the differnt biological functions and characteristics flow from this. We have single sex facilities and categories in certain types of public situation on account of these differnces, and what tends to flow from them. To protect the inherent dignity of one's sex.

The rest of the time we are all just human beings ( though still of either the male or female variety) trying to get along, and throug,h life with some measure of satisfaction.

I was trying to explain this to you, because you don't seem to understand this.
If sex and gender are different, why do people who identify as a different gender alter their bodies to resemble the opposite sex?

I would say the same reason cis people alter their bodies. Its a manifestation of their inclination towards feminine or masculine presentation. Let's not forget they aren't changing their gonads. Secondary sex traits are also markers of masculinity & femininity.

I'm not lying. I don't care what anyone wears. Men in dresses, fine. Men adding fake tits and pretending to be women, not fine.

But women with fake tits fine? See you do care. and they aren't pretending to be women anymore than cis women are.

Except they've now decreased, with labels on everything where they didn't exist before.

This view relies on very reductive understanding of the complexity of the human experience. Two things can be true at once. Overlapping behaviours between the sexes & typical behaviours particular to the sexes that an individual has a commonality with. Pretending these phenomena's don't exist lest people stereotype the sexes is to underestimate the sophistication of human cognitive abilities.

Living as a woman generally is often tied to wanting to be seen, addressed & included as woman by society, regardless of the sex a person was assigned at birth.

And they, (trans women) like many cis women don't consider transwomen to be at the same level as threat as men. Of course you can disagree with that as I do for some spaces but a lot of them don't see it that way but certainly not all of them. Trans people aren't a monolith when it comes to single sex spaces just like cis people.

What you are calling 'interchangeability' is the wrong term. The sexes are not "interchangeable", though, outside of biological function, they do share in a broad range of human potential and expression.

Monkeys don't not have human rights because "they look different"; they don't have human rights because they are not human.

Bloody hell. Your posts get weirder and weirder.

I would say the same reason cis people alter their bodies. Its a manifestation of their inclination towards feminine or masculine presentation. Let's not forget they aren't changing their gonads. Secondary sex traits are also markers of masculinity & femininity.

Where to start with this nonsense?

Well, they can't change their gonads, can they? Although apparently Lili Elbe had an ovary implanted (somewhere). And genital reconfiguration seems quite popular (although most TIMs like to keep their penis - I wonder why...?)

Secondary sex traits are markers of sex, not "masculinity and femininity" (gender). You do still seem a bit confused about the difference between sex and gender.

But women with fake tits fine?

When did I say that?

See you do care. and they aren't pretending to be women anymore than cis women are.

So you're saying men who wear a bra stuffed with padding or have breast implants aren't pretending to be women, they're just men who like the look of themselves with fake breasts? You're really not making a lot of sense here. Women, whatever they look like, and whatever cosmetic surgery they have are just women. They don't need to pretend to be women because they are women.

Overlapping behaviours between the sexes & typical behaviours particular to the sexes that an individual has a commonality with.

Showing behaviour typical of the opposite sex (although perhaps some examples would be useful here) doesn't mean anything other than that someone has particular preferences. It's called personality.

How do you think women want to be seen and treated?

Transwomen are male, regardless of their personality. We have single sex spaces to protect the inherent dignity and privacy of the female sex - this is rooted in biology.

It's of no relevance how they 'want to be seen' by society. I'm sure lots of us want to be seen differently by society. However society perceives is as we are.

Its also of no relevance what their relative risk as a subset of men is. I imagine elderly men are less risk to women, but that's no argument for having them in women's paces either.

Women's single sex spaces need to be upheld. We have established that these men do not change sex. No man or any kind, no matter how he wants to be 'seen' has any business in women's sex specific spaces. It is a very simple point.

Grayson Perry said his cross dressing stared at the age of 4 years old, and it was because he felt that people ( his violent step father) might treat him more kindly if he was a girl.

Living as a woman generally is often tied to wanting to be seen, addressed & included as woman by society, regardless of the sex a person was assigned at birth.

But that's just fantasy. Society can't change to accommodate the fantasies of every delusional fantasist. Let's change a couple of words to illustrate that:

Living as a child generally is often tied to wanting to be seen, addressed & included as child by society, regardless of the age of a person.

Living as a cat generally is often tied to wanting to be seen, addressed & included as cat by society, regardless of the fact that the person is actually human and not a cat.

And if his stepfather was anything like the usual brute, he was even more angry and violent that his stepchild was "girly". I don't think dressing as a girl is likely to help small boys placate brutal adult males.

Wading through page after page of the two mooncalfs who have colonised this thread and mansplained (badly) all over it is certainly hard work. More than half the posts on this page and the next are either one or other of them banging on unintelligibly about who-knows-what, or people patiently replying to their nonsense and trying to get through to them. The latter is clearly futile, since they are not listening, just looking for cheap points to score. It's depressing.

Maybe start yet another thread incessantly bloviating on how 'men in dresses' are an existential threat to humanity to cheer yourself up? I promise not to invade your safe space!

We could all reeeeally use that as nice pick me up.

Men should expand the representation their sex class includes. They should support all types of men, including in a dress or doing other gender non conforming things.

Maybe start yet another thread incessantly bloviating on how 'men in dresses' are an existential threat to humanity

Nobody thinks that.

As the temperature creeps up and up, it seems only fair that men should be able to wear more loose fitting light weight clothes.

Yup. Like the Swedish railway staff.

Thus proving that you have not in fact read any of my posts. Congratulations! You open your mouth mostly to put one of your feet in it.

One of them has branched out to other threads and to AIBU and started sniping there. Most recently at a woman who is undergoing chemo and isn't able to travel in this heatwave.

I like a genuine debate - I find it interesting to see how others come to their decisions. And AIBU can be helpful in getting alternative points of view. Being insulted and sniped at...not much use.

I thought it wasn't even that she couldn't travel: it was that her husband hadn't done a damn thing to fix the aircon in the car, and was blaming her having tried and failed to do so, and for not wanting to spend an hour in an overheated car with an asthmatic child and a heavy-coated dog just in order to pander to his mother's wanting to see him and the child. Or a meringue and I have the wrong thread?

Anyhow, yes, sniping may be fine if you're a Finn with a rifle and a LOT of trees to vanish into, but it's pretty futile on a board like this.