Is being trans a 'disease'/mental health issue?

[SolveMyPrombles]

I'm asking on this board for deliberate considered responses so please do share your thoughts.

A lady on a local group has described being trans as a mental illness that should be treated with compassion not pandered to because it's a disease.

Looking into it more deeply I believe she's wrong and there is no current diagnostic manual that agrees with her take.

What do you think?

It’s fair to say we have very different perspectives and experiences.

I would say it’s as close to living as a woman as I can get in this body. I’m acutely aware that I am not the same as a woman and that’s okay, but people treat and respond to me in a way that works for me.

Interesting. To me it seems very reactive, very much based on other people's perception of you
I don’t agree with that assessment. I’d describe it like I know who I am as a person and I’m secure in that, but the changes I’ve had from hormones and surgery make it easier for other people to see the real (in my mind) me

Exactly. And then when we refuse to reduce being a woman to oestrogen and boob size we’re called mean and unpleasant. 😀. Did we ever get to the characteristics of a woman yet? So far we’ve got boobs, oestrogen and ….. 😀😀😀

You never did answer? Which woman are you living as? Do they know you’re living as them? You can’t be sexist enough to believe a male can know what it is to be a woman can you?

Oh give it a rest. You’re making a right idiot of yourself by disingenuously misinterpreting my words.

You’re the one who said them. Not me. You said that it was your secondary sex characteristics and oestrogen that made you a woman. You’ve given no other reason as to why a male would believe he is a woman, and no explanation about how a male would know he is “living as a woman”. I’m just going by your posts on here. No more, no less.

Because I don’t believe that any male person will be not able to have their sex correctly identified by some female people (ie female children or adults). I think that many male people wrongly assume they pass because people either lie or don’t show that they have correctly identified that male person’s sex, leaving that male person to believe that they have ‘passed’ or that every one simply accepts their subjective reality as being material in some way.

I have also seen numerous male people who have had their puberty blocked very early on who are in the media or are activists, which some people have declared have passed very well, yet they are very clearly identifiable as being male. Even those who have facial reconstruction.

I think that it makes some people feel better thinking that no one can correctly identify their sex. But I think that they would be foolish if those male people genuinely believed that and that in doing so, those male people also show just how poorly they understand female people’s reactions to them.

I didn’t say that and if you could read properly you would understand that. What I said was that we don’t identify people by their chromosomes but by their sex characteristics. I then said taking oestrogen as a trans woman can change your sex characteristics to appear more female. That change can then make people assume you are a woman in daily interactions. I never said those characteristics literally make me a woman.

Am really sorry, but it is hard to interpret your words any other way. The only secondary sex characteristic that you achieve by oestrogen and not as a result of going through female puberty IS the development of breasts? And very slight increase in body fat percentage?

Having supported several friends through breast cancer and mastectomies, having seem my DH’s aunt die from breast cancer - a female specific cancer in that 99% of sufferers are female and the risk factors are high levels of naturally occurring oestrogen and progesterone - it is hard not to react to the idea that is is the development of breasts that convinces a natal male that he can experience life as a woman and that this informs others of his womanhood. It is hard to see them navigate reconstructive surgeries, chemo, immunotherapy [often in the knowledge that this illness has already killed their mothers] or come to the hard decision to accept the absence of this natural part of their bodies knowing that some men feel that these brave women are somehow merely defined by the presence or absence of, well, boobs.

We’re not going to agree on this because your ideology relies on the belief that you possess a flawless radar to always detect someone’s birth sex

You’re asking me to ignore the evidence of my eyes and ears for the last 5 years and believe that everyone I’ve interacted with and use gendered language just decided to collectively humour me. My actual day-to-day life is peaceful, easy, and completely free of the friction you're insisting exists. I am going to trust my real-world experiences.

At no point did I say women are defined by their breasts, nor did I say the only change from oestrogen is breast development because that is objectively not true.

Copying this here in case you didn’t see it: What I said was that we don’t identify people by their chromosomes but by their sex characteristics. I then said taking oestrogen as a trans woman can change your sex characteristics to appear more female. That change can then make people assume you are a woman in daily interactions. I never said those characteristics literally make me a woman

Twisting this into an accusation that I am disrespecting cancer survivors is incredibly low and completely bad faith

Fact is not ideology.

You have no idea whether people correctly identify your sex or not. And who the fuck is going to tell you?

If you have never noticed how female people act when they feel they need to not show their understanding of a situation, that is because you are not female.

What is more likely, some female people have understand your correct sex category and acted as if they have not for many reasons, or that not one female person has correctly indentified your sex category at all ? You must have supreme confidence in yourself to believe that not one female person has correctly identified your sex category. And if one female can, what are the chances that others will have too?

But since you have shown you have no understanding of consent and safeguarding, to you it obviously doesn’t matter who correctly identifies your sex category. By using female single sex provisions for any reason, you have shown you simply could not give a fuck about female people’s needs. Just your own.

So which sex characteristics are those then? So if you’re not a woman, why do you claim to be living as one? I assume as you’re not a woman, by your own admission, thst you use male facilities? If not, why not?

so basically can everyone confirm,

a human is born either a male or female by natures design ?

so then the machine is created correctly but its the persons thoughts that think they are wrong body because ithen without using any science or medicine can you explain how you would turn a male body into a female body ?

and if you cannot explain it then does that mean nature was correct when it made the body ?

Not having read the full thread I cannot see how it isn't a mental disorder.

Being gay is not a mental disease because it is within the normal range of sexual expression for humans. If you believe that sexual intercourse and by extension sexual attraction is purely for reproduction I guess you can make the case. Most people having sex are doing it for a myriad of other reasons.

Trans-sexuality and Transvestite-ism have been lumped together, and now there is this new trans-lite that is affecting only GenZ and a few millenials.

Transsexuality was classed as a mental disorder because it was persistant and disabilng to the individual. From what I can understand it is as a result of severe and traumatising internalised homophobia/misoginy/misandry and primarily effects gender-non-conforming same sex attracted children. Thats is why gender reassignment was first started because it was resistant to talking and behavioural therapies i.e. they couldn't get rid of the extreme and disabiling discomfort.

Transvestisim is another kettle of fish. From what I understand the root cause is a trauma to a dominating female care giver as a little boy. Sometimes that trauma becomes sexualised i.e. a fetish and sometimes it doesn't resulting in non-fetishistic trans vestitism. Most of this can be managed by the individual and I don't think it is a good thing to shame it -as it is a trauma response.

The new non-binary/transmasc/fem is a trend predominately effecting outsiders whether they are neuro-atypical/same-sex attracted/sexual assualt-survivors etc. These people would have had a mental health disorder/addiction issues anyway and this is just the newest version. In the past they would have been punks, emos and goths. This is the first generation whose adolescence is completely defined by social media and the internet rather than music.

Where I think the issue is, is with the tolerance of the narcissim that is present in some of these individuals coupled with internalised/externalised misogyny. We all know that activists in general are pretty narcissistic individuals and enjoy dominating conversations, peoples lives because they simply do not have the capacity for empathy. It would be interesting to know whether trans-people have a higher level of narcisisstic behaviour and higher incidence of NPD than the general population or if that is just an impression I have from the fact that people with higher narcissim tendancies are popular on social media.

No, because I clearly remember that I "knew" I was a boy before we got into that church. Then I repressed my trans-ness all the time I was in the church, thinking of myself as a tomboy, not a boy. It was only when I finally left the church that I "remembered" that oh hey I'm actually a man!

I think this is an interesting point- slippery but interesting.

Would you agree that there is an observable difference by people sex characteristics arising from their chromosomes, and those arising from exogenous i.e. not internally produced hormones?

You have no idea whether people correctly identify your sex or not. And who the fuck is going to tell you?
People very quickly categorise people into male or female. They do this based on the cues available in front of them and then use the corresponding words. Someone very obviously trans is going to have a very different experience to someone who isn’t. If my sex is readily apparent I’d expect a lot of people to slip up and call me ‘he’ or ‘mate’ in casual interactions(which doesn’t happen to me btw) None of us ever know how someone else sees us, but we can get a pretty good idea based on the words they use when interacting with us.

No, you said:
‘I feel like they've got it right when they refer to me as a woman because they are reading my visual and social reality accurately.’

‘Your sex is responsible for your secondary sex characteristics which form a large part of how people identify your sex. Most secondary sex characteristics are driven by oestrogen, and a trans woman taking oestrogen develops those characteristics is some form.’

Linking those together - you are saying that your visual reality (the way people observe you) is shaped in some form by the secondary sex characteristics that you acquire through taking oestrogen…

And we are pointing out that the only secondary sex characteristics that you can develop purely by taking oestrogen and without experiencing female puberty are breasts!!

So yes, from where I am sitting, trying to decipher your replies, you are stating that having breasts means people recognise you as and treat you as a woman.

And I am sorry if my referencing breast cancer - the very real female specific illness - is offensive to you, but the idea of reducing the concept and definition of ‘women’ to ‘those having breasts’ is also utterly offensive to me, especially when I have watched women die as a result of having them.

And again you show that you really don’t understand female interactions at all.

Considering how you act on MN, one this very thread, I think we can safely understand why female people around you will not be showing at all that they correctly have identified your sex category. The fact you cannot even conceive such a thing is all women need to know.

In both cases those characteristics are driven by hormones, it’s just whether they are producted by the body or supplied in a bioidentical form by medication.

I think our bodies just ‘know’ what to do when a certain hormone is present and I don’t think this differs between male and female bodies. We see this when trans men take testosterone. They develop facial hair and their voice deepens, just like it happens in natural male puberty. Every trans person has a slightly different result and it’s very dependent on your genetics and how aligned your features were with your birth sex.

Don’t forget soft skin. We hear about that one quite often too.

And this is where I disagree.

Lets take it out of the trans-phere for a second. There is an observable difference between males who work out and build muscle naturally to the those who use PEDs.

Would you agree with this or can you not tell the difference?

And we are pointing out that the only secondary sex characteristics that you can develop purely by taking oestrogen and without experiencing female puberty are breasts!!
It only takes a few seconds of Googling to understand this is false. Breast development is definely not the only change I have seen from hormones.

I will paste this short overview from Google:
Facial Changes
While estrogen cannot alter adult bone structure, it significantly restructures the face's soft tissue over 2 to 5 years: 1]

• Fat Redistribution: Fat gradually accumulates in the cheeks, lips, and under the skin, creating a rounder and softer facial silhouette.
• Skin Texture: Skin thickness and natural oil production decrease, making the skin notably smoother, softer, and less prone to oiliness.
• Jawline Softening: Masseter (jaw) muscles mass is reduced, causing the lower face to lose its sharp angularity.
• Hair Patterns: Facial hair slows in growth rate and becomes finer, though medical interventions like laser hair removal are usually required to remove it completely. 1, 2, 3, 4]

Body & Systemic Changes Estrogen alters systemic fat distribution, muscle composition, and metabolic function: 1, 2]

• Breast Development: Breast buds typically form within 3 to 6 months, initiating a multi-year growth process that mirrors natural puberty. 1]
• Body Recontouring: Subcutaneous fat shifts away from the abdomen and builds up heavily around the hips, thighs, and buttocks. 1, 2]
• Muscle & Strength Loss: General muscle mass and upper body strength decrease, resulting in a smoother appearance of the limbs. 1, 2]
• Reproductive Shifts: Testicular size shrinks by 25% to 50%, erectile patterns change, and sperm production significantly drops, resulting in reduced fertility. 1, 2]
• Emotional Well-being: By directly alleviating gender dysphoria, medical transitions frequently correlate with substantial improvements in confidence and self-esteem. 1]

You know I once held a baby chimpanzee called Dennis in a chimp rescue centre, bum wrapped in a Pampers nappy. In addition to having human-like eyes as he gazed curiously into mine, gentle fingers as he explored my face, he had the most incredibly soft skin, too. Baby soft.

No relevance at all to this thread, really, but even Dennis seemed to recognise where our similarities began and ended I think.

The issue is that it is feminising a male body, and that is obervably different situation from a natal female body.

Changes may happen, but the hormones are making a male body appear more female than male rather than making the body female.