Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread (follow on from Chair of SEEN is being sued)

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5031904-the-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued
TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN or IP). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

The hearing is in Leeds; the number of online observers has been limited by the court due to "capacity" and posters are reporting that requests for links are being declined on those grounds.

Also to note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case.

I'm still rather in shock at the tribunal mandating that Naomi and Elspeth must use wrong-sex pronouns to refer to the claimant. I had long thought that this issue of pronoun usage had been settled by courts and tribunals to the satisfaction of most i.e. a compromise of usage based on belief.

I do hope someone will get a chance to explain that no one has a problem with ST being a TW. He keeps telling us that is unmoveable but no one is trying to move it. The point is, of course, that he is a TW, not a woman. Im very aware of how he never refers to himself as a woman, given that he has got himself a certificate that is quite telling and loses his own argument somewhat.

In fairness that isn't what happened - they've been asked to use "neutral" pronouns or avoid pronouns.

ETA but also I think the first thread isn't quite full so we are jumping the gun!

There is no such thing as a neutral pronoun though. "They" is bad English and used for those who claim to be non binary. In a case about whether you can express GC belief it's clear bias.

'They' isn't always bad English; as used by MN, there's "anyolddinosaur updated their thread". Used as a replacement for the rather clumsy 'his or hers', it's surely an improvement. But I agree it's been tainted by the genderists, like a few other words.

my english isnt that great - but "she" would be the appropriate pronoun. aod updated HER thread. Their makes me sound like more than one person.

I've often thought that it's odd on Mumsnet, a site founded by women and still overwhelmingly female, not to use she/her as the default for those updates. I mean, why wouldn't you?

Well, they were told if they used the correct pronouns for the Claimant’s sex (i.e. a man) there might be ramifications. I can’t remember if the judge started off from a position of everyone pretending ST was a woman was to be the line, and then with pushback allowed for NC and witness not to actually have to lie.

Judge did say that as ST had a piece of paper (i.e GRC) he would be referred to as a woman by judge, through his use of female pronouns.

All paraphrased.

It's compelling people to use clunky words they wouldn't normally use which they may well perceive as lying / obscuring an important truth. I would consider having to use difficult to manage so-called 'neutral' pronouns rather than standard English traumatising in these circumstances. Also cognitively difficult. It is massively disadvantaging one side and not the other.

It's basically coercive control. If one partner did this to another in a relationship - controlled their language, didn't allow free expression, demanded obedience and difficult hoops to jump through, denied partners reality, it would be considered coercive control.

Finally I can comment! The judge has been grumpy at points today, with some justification it must be said. He's lost a day to bundle matters and you could clearly hear "FFS can we just get on with hearing evidence" by midmorning. Vocally he sounds like the judge in the Darlington Nurses case, and he is similarly courteous to the witness and to AL when he said he felt unwell at lunchtime. However, like Sandy Kemp he is also taking handwritten notes and got very grumpy at AL this afternoon when he started another question while he was still writing up the previous answer and told AL to watch his pen. He did allow jackets off for AL and his solicitor after lunch.

AL: But you are also trying to be divisive - that GC beliefs must not be expressed.
ST: If someone is GC but doesn't tell me, I don't need to be divided from them. But if they talk about it, it just creates a mess at work. That is what makes harmony in the workplace.

This was a very summarised version of the Claimant's quite animated response. Basically, if someone says the words "I hold GC beliefs", then they hear the words "You are a man not a woman and I deny your existence". Like a babelfish from Hitchhikers' Guide stuck in his ear.

AL: EDM mentions LGBAlliance and transgendertrend, but also Stonewall and Mermaids.
ST: That's just her trying to look balanced

Nebulous dogwhistle anyone? Claimant's full answer sounded as bonkers as it looks written down.

AL: S/O v religious cd be offended?
ST: Yes - says 'supernatural''

This Claimant seems to have a different dictionary to everyone else.

Oh, and if anyone wants to "hear" the Claimant's voice when reading what TT posts, They have a North-East England accent and a deep-ish voice. I'd have a guess at somewhere around Sunderland, but that is a guess, I'm not overfamiliar with the area.

Before the other thread closed SlackJawedDisbeliefXY asked if Defra was part of Stonewall's scheme. They were one of the last Government departments to leave.

Thank you @myladydisdainisyetliving ! TT do a great job in difficult circs but so good to have firsthand colour and detail from someone else 'in the room'.

Myladydisdain are you/have you been physically there? Is it worth going in person or is there as good a view online? I remember the judge saying the room was small and the observers were in another room.

I'm an online observer so I really can't comment. If I had to guess, I'd say the the overspill observers in the second room get the same feed that we are getting as online observers. Whether that's worth travelling to Leeds ET is going to be very personal - the paper copies of the witness statements are going to be in that overspill room once the witness has given evidence so that may be an incentive.

Gosh what an interesting afternoon and how very revealing of the TRA psyche.

Thanks very much to those C+P the TTs. Much appreciated.

This looks like it’s going to be a classic.

Sam Tempest - even saying you are GC is literal death. Saying sex is immutable and binary is denying my existence.

Also humanism denying Gods existence is fine. They’re just into science and facts.

Eh what is sex being binary but scientific facts you absolute illogical person.

Judge is rude and angry and bad call on pronouns. But even he shouldn’t have to endure this absolute pish.

I'm interested in just how hot it is in the courtroom. Judge is getting £633.96 a day (I guessed too generously) for this plus his pension. Judges pension accrue at 2.5% of earnings per year, average earnings scheme and he was a judge 21 years plus part time Chairman of the Employment Tribunals before that, dont know what he go for that. So he's a rich pensioner taking the case because he wants to carry on judging.

To be fair, whoever is in charge of scheduling these hearings could have taken a look at the length of it, seen the mess that Sandy Kemp made of the Peggie v Fife case and thought they'd better get a senior/experienced hand on the bench, I'm keeping an open mind - the pronouns thing is concerning but he was very supportive of the TT request for access to documents and instructed the legal teams to make their submissions available on request to TT in the interest of open justice.

I seem to recall many people had bad feelings about the judge in Prof Phoenix's hearings when she asked people for their preferred pronouns at the start, but she was very thorough and perceptive in her evaluation of the credibility of the various witnesses so turned out well in the end.

So ST who says he doesn't / wouldn't talk about being trans at work also

"ST: Am saying I am an TW and that is not moveable, also that this is all political, and, not relevant to DEFRA business"
And other posts about how people are being meanies on anything he views as trans related.

Is this bloke coming across as as batshit crazy to the observers as he is from TT posts?

I have seen his picture. He is clearly a bloke so he wouldn’t have to utter a word for his colleagues to know he is trans but I would bet money on him never shutting the fuck up about his opinions on allsorts of issues.

I know a little about this from a previous life. There are shortages of judges and a lot of cases in the backlog. It is not at all uncommon for retired judges to be called in as a favour to the courts they have history with just to make sure cases are heard.

They have a North-East England accent and a deep-ish voice. I'd have a guess at somewhere around Sunderland, but that is a guess,

Perhaps he's a Geordie who likes to self-identify as a Mackem.

Yes.

That would explain his comments about the court being short of resources.