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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread (follow on from Chair of SEEN is being sued)

985 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 25/06/2026 16:02

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5031904-the-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued
TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN or IP). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

The hearing is in Leeds; the number of online observers has been limited by the court due to "capacity" and posters are reporting that requests for links are being declined on those grounds.

Also to note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 14:44

Zoonosis · Today 13:52

He doesn’t have to "give reasons" because it is the accepted norm to refer to trans people by their preferred pronouns; he would only need to justify his decision if he was breaking that norm.

Rubbish, Qui, Quem, Quis are also 'pronouns' according to QT, good luck on normalising them.

anyolddinosaur · Today 14:44

The tweet - I think a few lines may be missing but yes, he has instructed witness and counsel and that goes directly against the bench book, looks like bias and is grounds for appeal

x.com/JRLevinsLaw/status/2071529931280900565

Propertylover · Today 14:44

anyolddinosaur · Today 14:18

It's a pity the Judge doesnt seem to have the latest revision to the Bench Book. Page 198 pargaraphs 17-19 https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/media/ah1n15rj/etbb-july-2024-february-2026-update.pdf

including

19. Witnesses should never be compelled to use the trans person’s preferred pronouns.

edit for typo

Edited

The judge is not compelling the witness to use STs preferred pronouns they are asking them to use neutral pronouns.

The GC GI debate has a long way to go and moving from compelling rape victims under oath to use preferred pronouns to neutral pronouns is a step in the right direction. You cannot stop and turn around 10 years of stonewall law in an instant.

I have said before this case is likely to be appealed because it’s about manifestations of belief. Appeals are on points of law, the judge directing the use of neutral pronouns means ST would struggle to use pronoun useage as grounds for appeal but EDW could.

ProfDrLapwing · Today 14:45

Tallisker · Today 14:33

@ProfDrLapwing from about Oct/Nov 22 until April/May 23 I think. So 6-7 months of it being open. And no, notifications of posts only go to those signed up to those groups, unless they’re posts in all-company groups such as IT issues, employee rewards, governance, HR etc

Thank you.

Thats the impression I had but the WS makes reference to posts on the SEEN network way past May 2023.

Actually I may have answered my own question, on re-reading the WS perhaps the posts were by the SEEN network and not actually on it. It’s not entirely clear.

SexRealistic · Today 14:46

This is the whole morning session from 24 June 2026 - so that people can recall the debate on this - and the really clear points Naomi made.

J - introduces himself and panel members.

On the basis that we know what the C & R position is, I will ask NC,
AL/HH - both reserve opportunity to comment on any remarks by NC
NC - in a sense it's not for me to speak to first, C has asked the ET for direction, C wants wrong sex pronouns or no pronouns from me,
J - HH has made that clear
NC - I'm simply making the point that this is C's application, asking the ET to do something unusual and extraordinary, seeking to control intervenor's speech to use wrong sex pronouns or efforts to avoid pronouns, it's not a trivial matter. Intervenor will not use wrong sex pronouns for the C, because Intervenor does not believe that C is a woman.
J - even if order by the tribunal

NC - no, the request is for us to choose between wrong sex pronouns and only use his name. Of course, you could go further and order us to use wrong sex pronouns. If we have to do that it will affect our every utterance, and significantly impact the amount of effort required. Witnesses are asked to tell the truth, and advocates need to be able to advocate for our clients. I says it's wholly unjust to be asked to jump through these linguistic hoops. It is a cognitive effort to use wrong sex pronouns, requires a mental effort to think of the individual as the opposite sex. You do that by trying to think of the C as a woman, cognitively it's a much lighter load to try and think of C as woman, then to remember that the usual rules of grammar don't apply

J - you find yourself in a difficult position, can we be brief on this

NC - you shouldn't interfere with the Intervenor and her advocates every utterance about the C, it's particularly important in this case because a witness and my main instructing party is autistic, its is particularly difficult for her to do something that requires untruth. The C says this is a matter of hearing management but it's a key part of the case itself. We have been taught and indeed the Tribunal has been taught that it is abusive to refer to trans people by correct sex pronouns. It is simply not. I also draw attention to the asymmetry here, we have not attempted to control the language of the C or advocate in any way and we would not think of interfering. We take a neutral position that all parties should use the language they see fit.
We say that its a part of HH advocacy to constantly use feminine pronouns and language about ST. If you repeat a lie often enough people come to believe it. For example TWAW

J - that's not what we're here to discuss, can we be brief

NC - that's all I have to say about HH advocacy. But the C has asked that a key witness, who is autistic, who has sworn to tell the truth. This application to control the language of my witness is flatly contradictory to the Equal Treatment Bench Book which says witnesses should not be compelled to use wrong pronouns and it says nothing about the language of advocates because they would be an extraordinary violation of rights. This application is an example of the type of behaviour that gives rise to the tribunal - a draconian attempt to control language and discussion.

It is a wholly unwarranted interference with Art 10 rights. This is a case in which it is plainly inappropriate for the Tribunal itself to use preferred pronouns. The C's case is that any manifestation of GC belief is harassment in the workplace. It is an important part of this story that he is male and the network that he is attempting to fit this scold's bridle to is primarily female. We say it is important that the C is male and that SEEN is largely female. The tribunal is a bullying act of a man seeking to silence women. You may feel inclined to use feminine pronouns out of kindness and courtesy. And those are good things in general. But by using those pronouns you are inherently accepting that it is unkind to not use them. I'm asking you to manifest impartiality between the parties and I'd like you to use name or C for C and avoid using gendered language.

HH - you have the letter from my instructing solicitors, sets out in detail our application. I am surprised by the intervenor's characterisation of application as extraordinary - follows to the the letter the ETBB (Equal Treatment Bench Book). It's about effective communication, it underlies this entire process, where the C is coming from, language is crucial because the deliberate use of he/him pronouns would have a profound effect on C's ability to give best evidence. Drawing Tribunals attention to C's previous experience on use of pronouns in earlier hearing. I didn't attend but C was x-examined at length using he/him pronouns and was traumatised by the experience. Because of that the judge in that case had intended to address C by preferred pronouns, the judge used he/him pronouns, accidental but had the effect of distressing C. This is a case that follows to the letter the guidance set out in the ETBB, could have tried to insist on everyone using she/her but acknowledges can't compel witnesses so is happy with no pronouns.

This is not a case of a rape victim being forced to use she/her pronouns, it is accepted that C has a GRC and is a TW. I'm grateful to the Rs for their approach to use preferred pronouns. We ask the Tribunal to do the same and witnesses to use neutral or no pronouns.

J - pausing for a minute.....J - we shall retire..

Break between 1st and 2nd morning session

J - with preliminary matters we will give decisions but not extensive reasons. Is that okay?
NC - may depend on the outcome

J - the tribunal will use preferred name and pronouns, C has pc of GRA. As to the Intervenor and witness we understand their position and accept that we
cannot compel witness to use specific pronouns, we ask the Intervenor as far as possible to use gender neutral language, we appreciate that this will be difficult, accidental slips may happen, but deliberate use of the wrong term or misgendering will be seen as inappropriate.

NC - can I be completely clear. My witness can use correct pronouns but I cannot?
J - we are asking you and the witness to use gender neutral language,
NC - so is that they/them
J - so they/them and C
NC - I may need to take instruction, can I have your
reasons.
J - will give full reasons at the end of the hearing.

BendoftheBeginning · Today 14:46

ProfLargofesse · Today 14:34

Respectfully I disagree. I can see you are exorcised by it but to argue we are only here now because humans like to discuss non work things at work is wholly reductive. The equalities act is built
around the idea that being human means you can’t ban people from talking about non work things at work but there does need to reasonable measures to be sure that this is within limits of the law and if society can’t quite work it out by itself then the law arbitrates.

We are not here now because humans are not, in fact, machines but because a particular strand of people have been given license to think they are more special than anyone else, not because folk will talk about non work things at work.

And good luck to if you think you can stop people talking about the wider world, or their cat, at work.

I think we may be trying to explain work to someone who doesn’t actually work!

anyolddinosaur · Today 14:47

There is no such thing as neutral pronouns and the judge has not requested he has insisted. That is compelling the witness to lie.

FarriersGirl · Today 14:47

From TT:

article written by lesbian member

ST - you have to accept that sex is binary and immutable to be a member of SEEN, I think they don't have any T members,

AL - in respect of your comment, turn to page 1469, we can say a record of mod decision on that same comment, the decision was to remove with no further action, reason given 'misrepresenting the views of members of SEEN' did not accord with principles of communication, it was a reasonable decision
ST - I don't think so, I'm just taking the next logical step, if sex is immutable, no such thing as T I don't think SEEN would disagree
AL - this was intranet not Yammer, had moderation panel, separate
ST - I know there was moderation, don't know who it was
AL - p 1451, we see again the same comment and the response is that this isn't the place for this discussion, another T person comments that her position is different to yours but the discussion shouldn't be taking place on that forum. ST - I don't agree that she disagrees with me, she's trying to find her footing in this debate, trans people overall hold a view that this is a problem in the workplace.

AL - your comms with Mr Calvert, he emails you, no process for appealing decision of intranet model panel exists. And that was in response to removal of the post.
ST - yes
AL - informs you no right of appeal but has long informed comms with you, taking in your point of view. Complaint against removal, goes to panel. This is different from Yammer, where moderation is done by IO in first place. But you didn't need an appeal you'd had independent consideration of your appeal.
ST - no I don't agree, just told it's not removed

ProfLargofesse · Today 14:48

So J and panel not sympathetic to AL needing more time to prepare questions to unwieldy Excel
doc only entering into evidence mid cross? hmmm. It makes me think the panel are wanting cross to finish easy to read into that. I am beginning to suspect panel aint all that neutral.

lcakethereforeIam · Today 14:49

Are tra remarks being moderated on SEEN threads? I think that's fair enough. They should look at not only what was said but where it was posted.

SexRealistic · Today 14:50

BettyBooper · Today 14:37

Ah cheers!

I totally had in my mind that NC had said to the J, 'so I must use x language, but my witness does not?'

Who knows where I got that from! 😂

She did say that and then he said - no you're both compelled. I cut and pasted the full thread. Absolutely baffling.

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · Today 14:53

ST - I don't think so, I'm just taking the next logical step, if sex is immutable, no such thing as T I don't think SEEN would disagree

And yet we are told that of course they know that sex and gender are different things and trans is about gender.
Talk about have your cake and eat it.

poppsocks · Today 14:53

"ST - you have to accept that sex is binary and immutable to be a member of SEEN, I think they don't have any T members"

That's a common mistake - people who believe in gender identities are also able to think that sex is binary (because it's not the same thing as gender) - and trans people with no gender identities.

The Claimant seems to be conflating sex and gender in these latest responses (e.g. "if sex is immutable, no such thing as T"), which is transphobic.

anyolddinosaur · Today 14:53

Respondent has now said his cross will go into tomorrow. so cuts into Naomi's time - unless they agree that she does that bit.

FarriersGirl · Today 14:54

From TT:

AL - you complained about comment by EW 'only women menstruate',
ST - yes
AL - page 348, comment made by EW, over the page there are further comments relevant to that, she says 'welcome your right to hold a different view, but I'm autistic and accuracy in language matters'

ST - yes
AL - this was in a Teams live chat in an event for autistic women, EW was responding to a comment 'people who menstruate' do you agree
ST - yes
AL - you were not at that event were you
ST - no
J - a question, how did you see these comments,

ST - colleagues advised me of them
J - these were not at this point SEEN members (EW)
ST - not at this point
AL - you raise a sep complaint about EW, page 932, pursuant to new comms principles, the role in relation to mod was for IAO, there was training, EDW was IAO for SEEN

ST - yes
AL - 14 June email, talking about training, she's raising issue with the description of pcs, GI listed as PC, you weren't at the training
ST - yes
AL - gender recognition, ...
J - gender reassignment is the PC, GI is not ST - it's not a named PC, but it's been held to be

WomanWithoutNeedOfPrefix · Today 14:55

"ST - I don't think so, I'm just taking the next logical step, if sex is immutable, no such thing as T I don't think SEEN would disagree"

I think SEEN would very much disagree. How does he know he's trans if sex is not immutable? To be trans you have to have a (fixed) sex and a gender that you think is not aligned. If sex could actually be changed then trans people would cease to exist.

MyrtleLion · Today 14:59

J - gender reassignment is the PC, GI is not ST - it's not a named PC, but it's been held to be

No it hasn’t been held to be.

Is the judge completely unaware of FWS?

WomanWithoutNeedOfPrefix · Today 15:00

MyrtleLion · Today 14:59

J - gender reassignment is the PC, GI is not ST - it's not a named PC, but it's been held to be

No it hasn’t been held to be.

Is the judge completely unaware of FWS?

I think it it TT formatting. It is ST stating that gender identity is a PC really.

Propertylover · Today 15:01

J - gender reassignment is the PC, GI is not ST - it's not a named PC, but it's been held to be
reformatted by me

J - gender reassignment is the PC, GI is not

ST - it's not a named PC, but it's been held to be

poppsocks · Today 15:01

Sorry does that mean ST said that, "- it's not a named PC, but it's been held to be", not the Judge? Ie TT just didn't start a new line?

(Edit - crossed posts - thanks for clarifying, all)

Propertylover · Today 15:03

I think we are getting to the Granger Test is GI WORIADS

BettyBooper · Today 15:03

SexRealistic · Today 14:50

She did say that and then he said - no you're both compelled. I cut and pasted the full thread. Absolutely baffling.

Thank you for the cut and paste! It looks like he completely contradicted himself.

(Also glad I'm not making up NC quotes in my head 😂)

FarriersGirl · Today 15:04

From TT:

a belief in court cases, just like gc belief
AL - but its not in section 7, its right to say that
ST - I don't agree
AL - it's right to say the GRA is a pc but gender identity is not
ST - in those precise words, it's not
AL - post in SEEN group,
ST - may not be original says edited

AL - you're right it may have been edited, let's go through the process, now that is an edited version of the post we can see the red lines, on first blush is very similar to version that was posted but it was edited, that is contained in an email from EW on 26/6

ST - yes
AL - she's providing narrative as to why she made a post, she says that the training contained significant errors, there are red line mods and highlighted yellow 'suggestions', the yellow are ones that she's added. Do you disagree with any of that?

ST - I'm struggling to understand with the comments and the edits etc
J - I'm not sure where we're going with this
AL - so ST, the red line is suggestions made by DEFRA, do you accept that
ST - I think I've managed to work that out.
AL - we can see that, EW says where I have not accepted changes I have made additions in yellow, that's the process,
ST - I can understand why you might say that, but I can't be certain

AL - turning back to 1197, email from CA to EW 'thanks for your cooperation', EW has sent amended text to CA, changes were made from orig text. You can see that was agreed, DEFRA was applying moderation to what she put up to make sure it was acceptable and accurate.

ST - I guess that DEFRA has worked with her to produce the post, which is problematic that they worked with her, they haven't considered how it will be received by other colleagues, it's all about how to draft the post and have completely failed in their duty to foster good relations.
AL - it was written by EW
ST - well she started it but DEFRA worked with her to make it acceptable
AL - she did this because of an error

FarriersGirl · Today 15:10

From TT:

in a training session
ST - if there's an error in a training session you don't need to send a post to everyone to root out any refs to gender identity.
AL - it's not harassment to correctly list the protected characteristics
ST - GI is protected under the Equality Act

AL - it does list GRA as one of the PCs
ST - it also lists sex - male and female
AL - it also says further down that GI might be covered under belief, the following post
ST - this is the edited version, not the original version
AL - and we've seen that DEFRA has ensured the post is accurate

ST - that is not what they did, they left the original post and worked over some days
AL - it is clear that the post is a criticism of the training
ST - if there is a problem with training, then HR should deal with that, not send a post like this to everyone CA should have posted it, not EW who has nothing to do with training

J - we may have exhausted this subject
AL - moving on to posts promoting anti-trans (AT) books, page 1047, talking about 'my body is me' Rachel Rooney' and 'Sex and Gender' both available from Transgender Trend

FarriersGirl · Today 15:15

From TT:

ST - yes
AL - EW doesn't agree these are anti-trans authors
ST - she's free to believe that
AL - Judge assume you dont' have Intv bundle, am going to put a point to ST
J - witness needs the document more than me
NC - I assume witness does have it, hard copies were brought to the tribunal
AL - it's likely to be one of the small bundles
NC - it was here
J - where is it now is the question
J - why don't we have a 10 minute break, if anyone can find the wandering bundle that would be much appreciated,
NC - you should have it electronically
AL - it was uploaded at 2:30, [seems that missing bundle has been located]
J - lets have a short break for 10 minutes, it's very warm in here.

Afternoon session, part one ends.