Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread (follow on from Chair of SEEN is being sued)

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5031904-the-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued
TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN or IP). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

The hearing is in Leeds; the number of online observers has been limited by the court due to "capacity" and posters are reporting that requests for links are being declined on those grounds.

Also to note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case.

Why do we have to wait the weekend for more of this nonsense. I want nonsense now please 🙏🏼.

It was the "little girl dresses" that made me wonder about Tinkerbell's clothing.

Im very sad to say that Ive slowly come to this view too. If you look at the Post Office, HSE, Citizens Advice, Environment Agency, Planning Enforcement, Trading Standards, now DEFRA it seems, all of these institutions had a respected history in my mind. However we then get a glimpse behind the curtain and discover that it’s like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. They exist but dont actually seem to be fit for purpose anymore. All smoke and mirrors. Lots of people with busy-work serving their own jobs but completely failing to provide the actual service which is the purpose of their organisation. And in many cases - worse - running interference on anyone who tries to hold them to account to do their actual job. Through this tribunal and others we hear about the absolute nonsense and time wasting that goes on which we are all paying for! Staff social networks with inbox notifications?!? WTAF? How on earth is all this distraction permitted and funded in the workplace?! It’s a disgrace. Continuing on with the pretence that the organisations are doing their jobs is toxic. Maybe the employees all know this and that’s why so many also slip so easily into the self delusion of trans fantasyland. It’s maybe the canary in the coal mine of the intellectual rot across the entire public sector.

yes sorry im obviously having a bad day

Do you have to? :)

Tempest doesn't have anonymity. He's very clear about being a transwoman. Thus, I don't understand why viewers are not allowed to see the witness. The room is tiny, so very few members of the public of any are allowed in. I'm assuming the hearing room they've provided shows the same camera angle of counsel/back of room. Part of assessing a witness's credibility is to see how they give evidence, and I don't see how this contributes to serving the cause of open justice.

Thanks to TT and all here for the c&p plus observations.

It sounds like this claimant’s case has really gone past its use-by date. The long wait for a hearing hadnt done him any favours has it?! When this started GI was in its ascendancy and he doesn’t seem to have noticed the change in climate…

Sorry im sure this has been asked before but where can I apply to view remotely? I may have to clear some diary space on Tuesday to watch NC in action

Sorry! 😆

I completely agree about the lack of open justice. The camera is placed so the witness is deliberately out of shot. It should be in the opposite corner of the room facing the witness stand. We have a lovely view of counsel, their devices and water bottles which is all very well but not the point.

Sorry Knotty, a couple of us have access as we made enquiries before the case was listed, and they are not accepting any more. Others have asked but been declined on the grounds of “capacity”.

Around 30 people were sent observer links and about 15-25 have logged on every day. We know the software is capable of more, so it’s the court’s decision.

Ah thank you. I can see their point after the mid hearing surge which impacted the Sandie Peggie case. Managing all the viewers did become a bit of a distraction for the clerks.

From my own experience, despite the stated cap on numbers, it's definitely worth asking @KnottyAuty. The judge mentioned yesterday that he's aware numbers of observers drop off as the case progresses. Email the clerks at [email protected] with 2502512/2023 - Samantha Tempest v Rural Payments Agency in the subject line.

Yes, well there’s also been a side issue in that the log in details were sent out with an open distribution list and when it was pointed out that this was a breach of GDPR they issued new logins and refused any more. No idea if there is correlation but communication with the Leeds ET is rather shambolic.

I think this pretty much nails it

https://nitter.net/i/status/2070570288069132339

I have worked in both the private and public sectors, and I must say, I did like the fact that in the private sector, I could just sack the useless wastes of space, whereas in the public sector, we were expected to just 'manage' the incompetence!

No it’s fairly true. Reading the witness statement I was aghast at the job titles, EDI nonsense. Does anyone do any work??

Yes I cannot understand how people don’t get managed or sacked. It’s easy to do with proper process.

All k can say to you is that it is impossible to sack people in many organisations. I’m semi retired now but when I was working in public sector we had someone in our team who was autistic. Which I am very aware of and ready to support but the adjustment I was instructed to make is that meetings (all meetings involving this person so individual catch ups, team meetings, planning meetings etc) could only happen if she agreed. And if during the meeting she decided she had had enough we had to stop the meeting immediately

I'm not sure which came first but yes, the realisation they'd made a stupid and inexcusable GDPR breach might have sent them into a panicked 'shut down' mode. Now things have settled down they seem more accommodating.

That’s definitely a plausible suggestion.

Absolutely. I’m stuck indoors recuperating from major surgery and this has provided very welcome diversion.

Employment Law states that 'reasonable adjustments' must be made for those with the PC of disability. I think a lot of employers, especially in the public sector, do not realise until it is too late that rendering your entire operation ineffective to suit one person, is not a reasonable adjustment and that it is perfectly acceptable to draw a line.

Fuck me, that's insane. And I say this as a late-diagnosed autistic woman who isn't keen on meetings. My own reasonable adjustment is that, where possible, meetings aren't sprung upon me. If it's not possible, I cope.
ETA - I'm also public sector. I spend most of my working day thinking about the public we're serving, not about myself, and thankfully most of my immediate colleagues are similar.

Solidarity for your surgery and may you heal well.

That’s great - might try to get a spot

I've seen him.

He does not look like that in the least.

But you know that, of course. If he truly thinks that's anything like him it gives us a fascinating window into his mind (not that most of us are interested).

Why can’t I see nitter links on my phone? So frustrating!

I know I’ve had this problem before but I can’t remember the answer 😕

It's not just the look he chose, it's the name too. I mean, it's possible that his pre-transition surname was Tempest but if so, it seems remarkably lucky for him that there is a cute stocking wearing animé character of the same name.

It also reminds me of one of those things about choosing a porn name by picking the name of your childhood pet and a type of weather.