Aberdeen teacher complaining about being blocked from teaching LGBT+ to 7 year olds

[poodlemum01]

A primary teacher residing in stonehaven, and seemingly registered with aberdeen council, has posted on the 'scottish primary teaching' facebook group her anger at not being allowed to deliver LGBT+ lessons to her P4 class (which in Scotland will be ages 7-8). She gets support in the comments from John Summers Campbell - the drag queen teacher. Did he not have some kind of legal action / bad press against him at some point? My mind vaguely recalls a tribunal or something....
I'm sure her employer will be delighted at her using her real name, having trans flags on her personal profile, publicly critising them, making the school and SLT pretty much identifiable, allowing other teachers to slag them off and call them bigots. Any Aberdeen residents on this thread?

I’m not saying homosexuality and being transgender are exactly the same thing. My point, that I perhaps didn’t articulate as well as I should have, is that history is full of examples where minority groups became the subject of intense public debate, fear and political controversy.

Homosexuality was only decriminalised in Scotland in 1980. At the time, many people sincerely believed that gay people posed a threat to society, children and family values. Looking back, most of us would recognise that those fears were misplaced.

I don’t know how history will judge today’s debates about transgender people. But I do think it’s worth asking whether future generations might be surprised by how much time was spent arguing about the existence and rights of a relatively small group of people rather than focusing on how everyone can live safely and with dignity.

I’m genuinely sorry that you’ve experienced sexual violence. Nobody should dismiss the impact that has on survivors or their feelings about intimate spaces.

However, I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to describe an entire group of people as predators.

A person doesn’t become a predator because of how they identify or how they dress. Predatory behaviour is something people do, not something they are by virtue of belonging to a particular group.

I also struggle with the idea that transgender people are “the most privileged, most powerful and most protected” group in society. Whether someone agrees with gender identity theory or not, transgender people experience disproportionately high levels of harassment, abuse, social exclusion and mental health difficulties. That doesn’t mean women’s concerns should be ignored, but it does make it difficult to argue that trans people are among the most powerful groups in society.
I think it’s possible to discuss women’s privacy, dignity and safety in single-sex spaces without assuming that every transgender person is a threat.

We clearly have opposing views, I’m not looking to change your mind and I’m sure you aren’t looking to change yours. We’re just presenting different sides of the debate. Have a nice day.

Was the teacher’s name not shared in the screenshots of the comments from the Facebook page, alongside where she is from and what local authority she teaches in?

For example, transgender people experience higher rates of bullying, harassment, discrimination, social exclusion and mental health difficulties than the general population.

Sorry but this is an absolute lie, and a lie that trans throw out without zero evidence to back it up.

Trans are the most 'in' and favourite and idolised group there is. In less than 15 years, society has been completely reordered due to the demands of trans. Women are now called 'bleeders', 'menstruators', 'cervix-havers', 'non-men', 'cis', 'birthing parent' and even 'front hole havers'. The gay community never demanded or achieved any such thing.
Trans identified males invade female bathrooms, change rooms, sports. Gay people never demanded or achieved that, nor did any other male.
We've had males being given female awards, women of the year, etc. No other male or gay man demanded or achieved that.
We've had male crimes been put on the female side of the ledger. Until 'transgender' was a thing, that didn't happen.
They've even taken away womens ability to define ourselves, to meet away from males.

They achieved all that, in less than 15 years. That is patriarchy on STEROIDS! You don't get to achieve all that, reorder society, redefine women, remove womens sex based rights and sex based spaces, if you are not the favoured and protected group that pulls the strings in society. They've achieved in under 15 years more than any other patriarchal misogynist group ever could have dreamed of. They are at the top of the totem pole, way above ordinary so-called 'cis' men. They've completely restructured the whole of society, infiltrated every single sector in society from education, health, government, charity organisations - everywhere. Tentacles absolutely everywhere. They've had the support of almost the entire society. Saying they are experience high let alone higher rates of bullying, harassment and discrimination is gaslighting writ large, and clearly completely and utterly untrue. It's not just clearly completely and utterly untrue and gaslighting, it's a sick joke.

I don’t think anyone is claiming that transgender people are the most vulnerable group in society, or that they face greater challenges than every asylum seeker, sex worker or single parent. Sorry, it’s early in the morning and I’m running on fumes being up most of the night with the kids - I should have articulated what I meant more clearly.

The point is that they are widely recognised as a vulnerable group because, as you acknowledge, they experience higher rates of bullying, harassment, discrimination, social exclusion and mental health difficulties than the general population.

Vulnerability isn’t a competition. We don’t need to rank groups from most to least vulnerable before acknowledging that a particular group faces significant disadvantages and risks.

I’d also be interested to know what evidence supports the claim that trans people are “among the least vulnerable groups out there”, given the outcomes we’ve both just agreed are worse than those experienced by the population as a whole.

I understand your point, but mine is that males are 50% of the population. Not a 'minority'. A male putting on a dress does not suddenly make him a minority, nor does it make him less of a threat.

We don't say all of the male sex are predators but too many are. That is why safeguarding against the male sex exists. It's why our fore feminists fought for female only single sex spaces. I am not assuming transgender persons (it's about transwomen btw, not trans men) per se are dangerous. I am assuming males are dangerous. No matter what he wears, or how he identifies.

Plenty of people are vulnerable- to mental health problems and bullying. This includes trans identified people.

It does not mean they are also harmless, especially when in a situation where they are bigger and stronger, and unaware of the effects that they have on many women.

It is important not to confuse vulnerable with harmless.

I think we’re talking about two different things.

You are making an argument about sex, risk and single-sex spaces. Whether people agree with you or not, that’s a debate about safeguarding and boundaries. My initial comments haven’t really entered into this debate. I’ve talked about right to exist and vulnerability - we’ve moved on quite far from the original points but it’s a highly contested area for sure.

I’m making a point about vulnerability. Even if I accepted every single thing you’ve said about sex and single-sex spaces, it wouldn’t change the fact that transgender people experience disproportionately high rates of bullying, harassment, discrimination and mental health difficulties compared with the general population.

Those two things can both be true at the same time.

A group doesn’t stop being vulnerable simply because some people have concerns about how competing rights should be balanced in particular situations.

Children know the difference between a boy and a girl, if some girl/boy turns up one day and says their actually a boy/girl then the children are going to react with scorn. If the disbelief expressed by the other children is going to be labelled as 'bullying' then it's not surprising that 'trans IDing children are going to be bullied.
Children don't have to accept something they know to be wrong, if the education in school is designed to shame them into complying with something they know to be wrong, the it's the school who is doing the bullying.
The child who has decided they are the opposite sex are the bully's not the bullied, because they are trying force all the other kids to do something they don't want to do. So far from 'trans' IDing children being the most bullied they are the one's who are guilty of doing the most bullying, and in that they are assisted by the school.

GET GI OUT OF THE SCHOOLS.

It’s probably 10 years ago now that my (not yet out) lesbian daughter described Tumblr to me as “the Oppression Olympics”.

I recall seeing, at the time, a list of “Oppression points,” which teenagers (and other immature people) could check to see how many points they scored on the Oppression Scale.

There were factors such as being a “person of colour,” or “disabled,” all of which were worth 1 point. The only factor that was more than one point was “trans”.

So for the immature (which includes the group, Primary School Children) sometimes vulnerability is indeed a competition.

And no, it is not neutral to talk about “trans people” or “gender identity”. Both of those are contested concepts, both heavily pushed by pseudo medical groups like WPATH, which are coming under increased scrutiny.

Beyond that, I assume we don’t teach children much about the specifics of mental or physical illness, other than if it comes up in a child or a child’s family. Why would the distress caused by obsessing about being the opposite sex be different?

I think you’ve got bullying backwards.

A child isn’t bullying others simply by saying “this is who I am” or asking to be treated in a particular way. Whether you agree with that child’s understanding of themselves or not, that’s not what bullying means. My child might ask a question like, ‘why is that boy wearing a dress?’ That doesn’t mean he’s considered as a bully. Most children I know would ask a question, accept an answer and move on. Quite often we come at this from the perspective of an adult, with the knowledge of an adult world and children quite often view things more innocently.

Children are absolutely entitled to be confused, ask questions, disagree, or struggle to understand. Nobody should be punished for genuinely trying to make sense of something.

But repeatedly mocking, excluding, humiliating or targeting another child because they are different is generally what we mean by bullying. I spent most of my childhood being bullied for being ‘different’ (late diagnosed autistic as an adult). Bullying in any form is horrendous and has a lasting impact.

I also don’t think schools are trying to force children to believe anything. Schools routinely teach children that people have different religions, different ethnicities, different family structures and different experiences. The expectation isn’t that every child must personally agree with every belief or lifestyle they encounter, but that they treat other people with respect.

A child saying “I don’t understand” isn’t bullying. A child being transgender isn’t bullying. The question is how everyone treats each other.

Point taken.

just to clarify, I did check the GTCS register, and there are three primary teachers with the name of the OP, none working in aberdeenshire, but one working in Aberdeen which is like 15 miles away from Stonehaven, so I assume that is where she teaches as the other locations are a bit further away. I have anonymously alerted the council and shared screenshots from both the group and the teacher's own page which is full of the trans flag and trans ideology and where there are some public posts she doesn't seem to be aware are public.

I do not intend for anyone to lose a job but I don't think any teacher should be publicly criticising their colleagues and SLT. That's for HR if you have a grievance. I also have personal concerns as 1, I have family members with children at schools in Aberdeenshire and 2, my own DC is training to be a teacher. I wouldn't want my DC pressurised, post graduation, to teach gender ideology or made to feel uncomfortable by her colleagues for declining.

I started P1 at age 4.5, so I would have been 8 at this time of year in P4. My point is that pupils START their P4 at either 7/8 years old. They'd only be 9, as a pp suggested, if they'd been kept back a year.

A person doesn’t become a predator because of how they identify or how they dress. Predatory behaviour is something people do, not something they are by virtue of belonging to a particular group.

Nobody said they did.

The trouble is that a man putting on a dress or declaring his ‘womanhood’ is then exempt from many rules and social norms and sadly as we’ve seen so many times, normal safeguarding rules.

You seem to know a lot about this - how can that teacher explain ‘trans’ to kids without reference to stereotypes? How can a boy ‘feel like’ he is really a girl?

forgot to add my cousin is a lesbian with a child with her partner so no issue with the LGB community, I just don't think GI or sexualised things should be taught.

Well done for doing this. The more pushback and scrutiny these teachers get the better.

I am laughing hollowly at the irony of PPs ‘horror’ at the sharing of these posts in a teachers group. The school obviously saw an issue with the content of this woman’s lessons and she is being egged on by a man known for being an extremely unsuitable teacher and encouraged to cause issues for the school on this.

Why does this group get to carry out the inevitable witch hunt at the school but calling that out is an unacceptable witch hunt?

When a child is asking to be treated by other children in a way other children don't want to, and gets upset when they don't get their way, it's not bullying by the other children.
When a child demands the other children do what they want and call them something the other children don't want to call them, it's bullying.
I don't care about your backstory, youre an adult now, find away to deal with it, and stop projecting your history on to others, especially children.
Children are mean, they've always been mean, as they grow up they learn to how not to be mean, it's part of growing up.

School plays a big part in socialising children, but they can't force children to believe in a lie, that's not education them that's bullying them.

I mean, the claim is always that trans people are indeed one of the most vulnerable minorities. The competitive aspect is absolutely there, injected by the TRAs. And I see no justification for it, so it bothers me.

I’d also be interested to know what evidence supports the claim that trans people are “among the least vulnerable groups out there”, given the outcomes we’ve both just agreed are worse than those experienced by the population as a whole.

I think I didn't express myself properly (my apologies, I'm ESL). I meant that sure, they are among all of the vulnerable minorities out there by virtue of being Different, but among those vulnerable minorities, they are among the least so.

The reason I mentioned being bullied as an autistic child is because I don’t accept the idea that “children are mean” and therefore we should just shrug our shoulders when children are targeted for being different.
Children can learn. That’s one of the main reasons we send them to school.
Nobody expected my classmates to agree with everything about me. They were simply expected not to make my life miserable because I was different. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation for any child.

Well said. This is at the heart of why trans ideology should be nowhere near primary schools. Parents unable to safeguard their children by claiming they're really the opposite sex need safeguarding and likely statutory interventions.
There's a reason transactivists target children with gender ideology. This "belief" is a niche adult belief that has a negative impact on children's psychological and emotional development. Teaching children to disbelieve reality, to accept untruths like the female penis etc is the opposite of being kind and inclusive.

It's a sign of progress that a young transactivist teacher has been given professional boundaries - especially in Scotland that has an awful history of paedophiles being involved in organisations working with schools (LGBT Youth Scotland) and the state allowing them to continue to work in schools.

Children aren't in school for her or any other adults to indulge in queer theory activism.

So the teachers in that chat have found mumsnet then? Welcome, all.

Ive read the arguments and learned nothing new. I have a question - have any of you read the Cass Review?

I totally agree that no kid should be bullied by the other children for presenting as the other sex. However:

1. That kid shoud be warned that they will most likely be bullied at some point, be taught how to deal with it, and of course be psychologically supported when it inevitably happens.
2. The other children (bullies or not) should not be forced to profess a lie (such that a boy is a girl or vice versa) nor to use self-gaslighting language (chosen pronouns). Adults choosing to do so is one thing, but children need to be able to hold onto the truth.

Absolutely. It’s not the LGB teaching that’s the issue. It’s the TQ+.

Let’s remind ourselves what that means.

The T is a harmful nonsense highly contested ideology that leads some children on a pathway to a lifetime of medication and surgery which will ruin their health and fertility.

The Q stands for Queer which is linked to Queer Theory. Many proponents of QT either have written in support of paedophilia or gave convictions for paedophilia. This is because one of the tenets of QT is breaking down normal boundaries particularly between adults and children in a sexual context.

The + . This sneaky little symbol covers all manner of concepts inappropriate for children. It seems to be a catch all for furries (a sexual identity driven by porn), MAPs and all sorts of ‘identities’. None of which are compatible with children or safeguarding.

The bit that amazes me is that some people are so prepared to desperate to wave away risk and inappropriate concepts and behaviour of adults with children.

As an example. Of the approximately 2700 Pride officers/organisers around the country, 8 are now convicted paedophiles or sex offenders. This is an extraordinarily high rate.

But instead of acknowledging a serious problem with some of the men they have welcomed and celebrated into Pride, and explicitly distancing themselves and seeking to clearly demonstrate that they are dealing with the attractiveness of Pride to paedophiles, they continue to ignore it and falsely advertise that Pride is family friendly.

This is a problem that has been recognised and called out by many LGB people but unfortunately the LGBTQ+ people are happy to continue as they are and harm to children will be collateral damage.

This is why the teacher’s lesson was a problem.

Teachers should teach facts.
Peopel can’t change sex.
stop telling kids that they can, you mess with their minds.

If you are referencing me, I’m not a teacher - thank god (say I and probably a lot of you in this thread 🤣).

If I was a teacher, I’d adhere to guidelines and teach what was appropriate at each age and stage.

All I was trying to say is that from the snippets of the Facebook thread above, a lot of assumptions are being made. I’d guarantee even with a teacher’s private group there’s a lot of debate about the lesson and the content. Sharing a resource doesn’t show much more than the resource. A teacher knows their learners and knows how to approach it. From the teachers that I know, they remain impartial and teach facts. As parents, we will also impart knowledge - as is our right to do so. Of course I am not saying people can’t challenge teachers, or ask questions about what their child is being educated about - I am simply pointing out that LGBTQ+ has a specific policy relating to inclusion from the Scottish Government and this resource arguably falls under that category. Of course you can disagree with that.

There is a big leap being made about this specific teacher, the resource and this meaning that they are pushing their own ideology on children. There is no evidence that this is the case. People can hold views and not bring them into the classroom. I know teachers who are not religious, but would never tell children that believing in God was nonsense. The same rule of professionalism applies here. Reporting a teacher for this, in my opinion, is unfair and probably won’t get very far. I agree, perhaps they should have aired their grievances with SLT with HR and followed protocol - but I imagine they thought that sharing their issues in a private forum meant for fellow primary school teachers was a safe place to get advice on how to proceed. I hope their naivety isn’t punished.

I agree that no child should be bullied, and I also agree that children shouldn’t be compelled to say things they don’t believe.

Where I think we differ is that I don’t see respect and belief as being the same thing.
Schools ask children to be respectful towards people whose beliefs, identities or lifestyles they may not share all the time. We don’t generally require children to personally agree with someone in order to treat them kindly.

I also think there is a difference between teaching children that some people identify in a particular way and teaching them that they must personally adopt a particular belief about sex and gender.

As for preparing children for bullying, I think that’s sensible to an extent. But I’d be uncomfortable with telling any child that bullying is simply inevitable and that the main solution is for them to learn to cope with it. I’d rather schools continue trying to reduce bullying wherever possible, whether the child being targeted is autistic, gay, transgender, disabled, religious, or simply different from their peers.

To me, the goal isn’t to make children think the same. It’s to help them learn how to disagree without being cruel. I don’t think you disagree with this. I can see your point of view. Thank you for responding respectfully.