Article on "arguing with a TERF"

[MyAmpleSheep]

I love to keep up with the other side, so here's a lot of words just to say "it's complicated." meanwhile he ignores the obvious answer to his own question.

www.fasttrackfemme.com/p/why-you-cant-win-an-argument-with

In such cases, the courts would be tasked with determining if the organization’s policy was a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim or if it breached the Act as interpreted by the Supreme Court.

No. Stop making up your own legal procedures and tests. There is no “proportionate means to a legitimate aim” test that would make what you’re suggesting lawful. You’ve copied a bit legal jargon that’s floated around on the internet and applied entirely wrongly. A lot of people make the same mistake, but it’s still a mistake.

A “proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim” test is applied before a single-sex service can be offered. Safety dignity and propriety for women and girls is a prima-facie legitimate aim when it comes to being undressed and keeping men out is a proportionate means to achieve that. Once that test is met there is no further “proportionality test” to opt in or out on a case-by-case basis.

Secondly, Charity law doesn’t have any such concept as proportionality. Charities must be operated for the benefit of their stated beneficiaries: in the case of GG, that’s girls. There’s no “but we can include others as long as it’s for a good cause”. It’s unlawful to do so, full stop. (Or, “period”, if you prefer.)

Betcha the man would win. They’d have to have a very good case as to why they allowed one man in and one not. If they don’t let him in, they’re discriminating on the grounds of GI. ChatGPT is not your friend today is it.

Sorry to go back a way but do standalone bathrooms (murderous again) exist in every city in the world? I’ve lived in London all my life, I’m not aware of standalone bogs all over the streets. I live very near to some Victorian public bogs, where Joe Orton used to cottage sometimes. They are well maintained, opened and closed daily and useful but I don’t think anyone depends on them because they are unusual. Happy to be corrected on the prevalence of public bogs on UK streets

And what argument could they possibly make?
WIA includes trans women because the organization advocates for "gender justice" and "champions all underrepresented gender identities in the industry."
How can they argue men are underrepresented in the animation industry just as much as trans women?

Because males with a trans identity are men. So by allowing men in, they would in fact be saying men were underrepresented. Unless of course, they could prove without a doubt that a male with a trans identity was not in fact a man. So they’d have to have a coherent, workable, provable definition of trans that would include everyone with a TI and exclude everyone without one. Otherwise how could they justify excluding one male and not another?

It's an exageration
The point isn't for people to rely on them (actually, for my solution it's best if they don't) but for people who'd rather avoid standard bathrooms to use them

Men wouldn’t need to argue they are underrepresented.

Affirmative action is illegal in British law. Advocating for “gender justice” isn’t an excuse for unlawful discrimination against men. So it wouldn’t be a defence.

You can have various bodies devoted to people who share a single protected characteristic (charities, associations) but “people who claim female gender” isn’t such a group.

Employers can take limited steps if they wish to rectify underrepresentation within their own employees, but that is not what your organization does.

But then wouldn’t the people who’d rather not use standard “bathrooms” be relying on them? You’re not making much sense. Have you tried rebooting Gemini? Sometimes that works.

Yeah, trying turning it off. And then turn it back on again. HTH

Or just do the first bit: turn it off. And then go for a walk, and then read Lord of the Rings and all the appendices.

and all books associated with the series. The hobbit… sigmalion etc.

They will be a few fan podcasts to listen to and forums to contribute to, as well. Be part of a community.

Yup. And The History of Middle-earth, and The Children of Húrin, and Farmer Giles of Ham and The Collected Poems and the Annotated Laundry Lists.

Not forgetting Leaf by Niggle.

(That was in reply to Theunchosenone but I wasn't quick enough off the mark.)

Those transwomen are men. What were they doing for the 10, 20, 30 years before they decided to declare themselves women? They were happily working in male dominated industries that's what. Then they aren't young women just starting out trying to break into industries that have traditionally kept women out. They are men that have experience and senior roles and the old boys network to see them right.

When poor little Stevie stops trying to justify his place in the ladies and goes back to writing software he isn't futhering the cause of women in IT, or breaking down barriers because he is a man, chocked full of male attitude and male advantage. He is where he is now because he has 30 years of experience of the industry as a man (oh and bosses that know damn fine he not going to want to take maternity leave).8

The point isn't for [people who are not trans] to use them, but for [trans women] (who'd rather avoid public restrooms) to use them.

“Trans women” don’t want to avoid public toilets. (Restooms?) They want to use facilities with women along side them to help with their affirmation.

If trans-identifying men were happy to stick to individual user facilities, we’d not be here.

What about trans men? Are any women allowed with medical conditions eg. IBS who need to get to the nearest toilet? How do you police it? It seems very exclusive this inclusivity.

There would need to be non-transwomen people using them too, though, or transwomen themselves wouldn't use them out of "fear of self-outing".

As I said before, anyone can use it.
It's a bonus portaloo on top of everything the city already has.

I think I’d rather fund filling in a few potholes or one fifteenth of a social worker.

Or some wheelchair ramps.

And as I said before, this would be funded by an lgbt organisation, and I explained why it's probably their best long-term use of money.

I’m not sure all the LGB people in your LGBT+ charity would agree.

Sure, then they're free to create an LGB organisation (I think there already is?)
An LGBT organisation's purpose is to ensure the needs of everyone under the queer umbrella, and working on the image of trans people (which becomes the image of the entire community by association) by solving their need to request access to women's bathrooms, which is one of the most polarizing issues on the subject that creates such a negative reaction, will lead to a better outcome to everyone.

How often have you used portaloos yourself? I've used quite a few as an archaeologist working on sites out in the middle on nowhere, and even when sharing them with habitually clean women colleagues they were still not things I'd ever choose except in dire necessity.

What does it look like? Our portaloos are pretty grim (see pic) and for site use in construction or festivals on a temporary basis. What flag colours is it painted in? You said only transwomen and allies could enter it earlier, if you have an urgent need to go, do you have to cross your legs and swear allegiance to the flag first?

(last one is a joke but it’s an American thing isn’t it?)

Intriguing. I think I am thinking more of any occupants safety than you. You just want the loudest form of validation which risks inciting misuse.