Quick public service announcement

[Tortoisel]

Last night my comment on here got deleted on a brigaded thread.

It might have even been a bait thread as had a few holes. Not quite Swiss cheese but a little nibbled.

Interesting because I wonder which exact part was the warranted deletion part.
I can’t see any of part of it which was an issue. I dont post on here to get deleted and I have been a regular posted on MN for many years so well aware of chat guidelines, posting in spirit, and where the line is. Both on normal boards and on this topic.

Just a heads up. And a question?

Is censorship increasing again?

I had a message "reviewed" and never released from that review about a month ago, also on a trans thread.

There is absolutely no way anything that I wrote in the message deserved censorship.

I've had two posts deleted. I found it very unsettling.

I queried both with MNHQ and their responses were thoughtful and .. is 'amiable' the right word?

They defended the first deletion on the basis, I think, that I had been OTT, which I absolutely had been, but the poster I was replying to was a man who was making very unacceptable remarks, and I felt he deserved all he got.
They disagreed, and I accept that the job of monitoring has a degree of subjectivity to it, so fair enough, not happy but OK.
The deletion stood.

The second time I queried the 'review'/deletion, can't remember which, they apologised - the post had been pulled to have a look at it, and mistakenly never got restored.
Their reply was friendly, apologetic, and understanding of the distress that a deletion can cause.
The post was restored.

In fairness to them, I found MNHQ approachable and reasonable when asked about their decisions, even though I didn't fully agree with them.

Have you asked them to explain the deletions?

I have had two deleted in the past week, which is very unusual for me. However, in retrospect, I think at least one deletion could have easily been justified. The other one I considered querying, because I can only assume it was considered "a personal attack " but there's no way it was, I was just very angry and used a swear word which, again, is something I never do! So, live and learn, I guess, and try not to post when I am very angry...

Absolutely. I like MNHQ or I wouldn’t be here.

No I haven’t asked because I am not really interested in the justifications. I know I didn’t say anything wrong.

I assume it’s coming under personal attack because I said ‘You are insane’. But I didn’t quote anyone or reference anyone so that’s not personal.

I am just wondering what’s going on. I have been on MN long enough to have seen the waves of tightening of speech and deletions. And wondering whether we are in one.

The erm..people that think they must be obeyed are on a knife edge right now what with relaity being somewhat restored in the UK, and they will be across every word and I'm sure their trigger finger sits on 'report report report' so much they probably are looking at the word 'report' and wondering what those letters even mean any more.

Good point.. I guess we should expect this kind of thing to be ramped up in the coming weeks, as the realization that they can no longer control the country anymore sinks in. So they come here, hoping to control everything we say, and using "report" as a weapon. Well, I shall control my temper, which is only civil anyway. I will not be told that what I know to be true is false, however.

It was the middle of the night so I can only assume these are American activists.

But as a British site for mainly British women should MN not have a rule against brigading. That’s not to say people can’t have other opinions or not be from the UK. But it’s very different when someone comes on, posts a bunch of nonsense and then reports the replies to said nonsense.

Many other sites have rules against this kind of behaviour. You shouldn’t have it both ways ie. Be able to say outrageous stuff and also report people calling you out for that.

I had one deleted recently, I don't know why, I didn't even know you could ask why.

It might have been because I was alluding to a certain demographic taking over the world with their recent swerve to +.

Yes, you can ask why, they aren't faceless - well they are faceless😒, but they are not nameless, on both occasions a named monitor got back to me and was prepared to engage fully with what I said.
I didn't agree with everything they said, but monitoring in real time is not an exact science, there is inevitably an element of subjectivity, and users sign up to it.

As Shedmistress says, they are likely being mobbed by lots of posts being reported strategically/not in good faith.

Yes, I suspect the recent +swerve may be the start of something akin to panic, and spills over into these fora, although I find it highly unlikely that there's any one thing or "head" driving it. It's undoubtedly one of Medusa's snakes though.

We'll see the Real Panic set in when the lawsuits in the US snowball.

edited. Honestly, I can't seem to spell at all anymore!

Interesting it’s not just me.

What is the + swerve everyone is referring to?

I thought things on this topic were relatively settled and calm now so not sure what the uptick in tension would be about.

Yep I had a deletion today- not a personal attack, just a dose of reality.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5533610-what-does-trans-mean

It's this thread re trans+

Same. I had my first deletion in years just a few days ago. Not a personal attack either but did include reference to the sissy porn/autogynephilia to transwoman pathway of many straight men.

And that women are under no obligation to participate in these men's personal sexual fetish by affirming them in any way nor participate in the immersive role play that Dave the builder is now a dainty woman.

I think this may have hit a nerve with our current monitors. 😁

Hi @Tortoisel - as others have said, you're always welcome to mail us at [email protected] (or just hit the report button on this thread or the thread in question) and we'll happily explain our reasons for deleting a post.

Thanks, I can confirm your willingness to discuss your reasons.

I still think the sexist so-and-so I was sarcastic to deserved everything he got in my deleted text, but hey..

Apart from asking about the deletion, I wanted to ask MNHQ to temper the threats of suspension and permanent exclusion, especially when it is a 'first offence'.

For many women, MN in general, and this board in particular, is the only place we can speak out, share our concerns, get support, break out of isolation, ask for help with difficult and sometimes very serious work situation.

I found the threat of 'permanent exclusion' really unsettling and quite distressing, especially as my deletion was for tone not content, and was a 'first offence'.

I think my point was taken on board, and I hope that the phrasing has been softened a bit.

You have a tough job, with a number of 'angles' to cover, and I accept that there is will always be some subjectivity and 'all things considered' decisions.

Hello @MarieDeGournay,
Thanks for flagging this "I found the threat of 'permanent exclusion' really unsettling and quite distressing, especially as my deletion was for tone not content, and was a 'first offence." We have made a note of this thread and your post and will discuss once everyone is back in the office this week.
Pip

Pip and Jo MNHQ,

Thank you for taking note of this thread.

It may not be possible, but it would be appreciated if, when you delete a poster, especially if a certain number of deletions may lead to permanent exclusion, you email the poster to let them know why.

As far as I can see, I have had two deletions recently with no explanation emailed to me (I did check my emails). If we are risking permanent exclusion without knowing the reasons why, then I believe this may stop some posters from engaging with threads at all, as a precautionary measure. This means that engagement drops and your advertisers get fewer views. I have actually avoided threads recently that I thought might "get me into trouble." And I still don't know why I was deleted in the first place.

I don't think it's fair to make us chase for an explanation. A site like this, where free speech is encouraged (but not constant slagging and hatred), is a godsend for women who cannot speak up in real life. If the threat of being deleted is ramped up, many may choose to go elsewhere.

Thank you.
I'm not saying that suspension or permanent exclusion are wrong, it's just the fact that bang! there it was, the first time I had ever had a deletion.
It was the mere threat of permanent exclusion that made me think about how deeply valuable MN is in many women's lives, and how unsettling the threat of losing that connection is.
Just a re-wording would be good, so that permanent exclusion is shoved further away towards the horizon, as a distant and avoidable possibility, not a threat

I've always found MNHQ quite reasonable on this issue. "Brigaders" can brigade as hard as they want but if your comment doesn't actually break a rule, it won't be deleted. If it was deleted, you probably did break a rule.

I had a reply removed. I could not understand why. There were not any profanities nor anything offensive as far as I was aware. I remain baffled

Do we even know when we have been deleted? I'm sure I have only discovered by accident sometimes, when re-reading the earlier parts of a thread.

I used MTF trans as shorthand for male to female on my post that was suspended. I'm wondering if that was misinterpreted as motherf...... trans?

I have had quite a few posts deleted over the last 1+ years I have been participating here. It’s always for mentioning the fact that a significant proportion of trans identifying males are indulging in a fetish which seems a particular hot button with some MNHQ censors. I have only once had an email informing me that my post had been deleted & threatening me with permanent exclusion.

Thank you for replying.

Considering I was barely discussing the topic and more discussing the brigadiers I believe it was likely tone, personal attack (which I do not agree with as did not mention anyone) or the use of the term ‘you are insane’. As a Brit who has had serious mental health (which you can verify from my post history) this term does not offend me and is colloquial British speech. We shouldn’t be policing people’s offence.

I don’t wish to waste anymore of your time with explanations as it was quite clear last night we had an influx of strange visitors and you are busy at it is.

But I do want to add a note if possible to your discussion after holiday that free speech is incredibly important. I posted a thread just days ago on this very matter… www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5532018-to-being-divided

And in fact in my comment I encouraged the brigadiers themselves to carry on. Although I didn’t believe that was beneficial to trans people who are genuinely trying to live their lives peacefully and respectfully and stated that.

You can also see from my history I rarely report anyone unless it really does cross lines.

I appreciate you are a private company. But you are also a political powerhouse. You are the voice of women in this country and I know you do a difficult job. But please. Do not forget our British values.

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.“
Evelyn Beatrice Hall, 1906