Quick public service announcement

[Tortoisel]

Last night my comment on here got deleted on a brigaded thread.

It might have even been a bait thread as had a few holes. Not quite Swiss cheese but a little nibbled.

Interesting because I wonder which exact part was the warranted deletion part.
I can’t see any of part of it which was an issue. I dont post on here to get deleted and I have been a regular posted on MN for many years so well aware of chat guidelines, posting in spirit, and where the line is. Both on normal boards and on this topic.

Just a heads up. And a question?

Is censorship increasing again?

I had a post deleted a couple of weeks ago for saying ‘don’t be stupid’ to another poster who had posted something really stupid. That same poster, in response to my comment, called me an ‘dipshit’ and invited me to lick her ‘hairy c*nt’, then edited that part out. As we all know, a post that has been edited can still be viewed by clicking on ‘edit’.
I asked MNHQ what action would be taken against a poster who posts such disgusting comments. The response was basically it’s none of my business. Clearly it isn’t to ban the poster as they continued to post similar comments.

Thank you, that's very helpful as a week or so I had what I considered a very long and well reasoned post deleted for a "personal attack". I asked for a copy of the post with what was considered a personal attack pointed out so I could rephrase and repost without the alledgedly offfending language, but got no response whatsoever. I've resent my request including [email protected]

FWIW I think the pattern of OP: "Innocent here is a dilemma I have about a TW at work / my child's friend / a club I am in" then a regular FWR genderist poster jumping in and goading with statements they know have been debated many times before without reference to any previous history on the topic at all has really ramped up. It might just be that other women are more aware of the issues now, but it feels somewhat - rehersed.

Oh, well, that's just splendid!

Hi all,

We can see there are a few different concerns being discussed here, so we wanted to come back on a few things.

First off, we do understand that having a post deleted can feel unsettling, especially if you’ve been here a long time, you’re posting in good faith, and you don’t immediately know why. To be clear, we don’t want to ban genuine posters. If someone is having posts deleted and we think there’s a real risk their account may end up being suspended, we will contact them well before that point wherever we can. A deletion is not meant to be a mysterious thing that silently moves someone closer to the door without explanation. We appreciate the point made on this thread that the wording of some deletion mails can feel alarming, and we’re going to look again at how we approach that as we don't want to put the frighteners on anyone!

On reports, a post isn’t removed simply because it’s been reported. We’ll remove something if we think it breaks our Talk guidelines, not because one side of a debate has managed to press the report button more often than another.

With regards to brigading - we know that word gets used a lot, especially on heated threads. Sometimes there are posters arriving with an agenda, and we do keep an eye on patterns of behaviour. But often what’s being described as brigading is simply people with a different view posting on the same thread. Mumsnet isn’t an echo chamber and we do allow a wide range of views across the site, including views that other posters may strongly disagree with. The basic principle is that robust debate is fine, personal attacks and posts that make the discussion impossible are not.

We’re always happy to explain a moderation decision. If your post has been deleted and you don’t understand why, please do mail us at [email protected]. Sometimes we’ll stand by the deletion. Sometimes we’ll look again and decide we got it wrong.

We know people won’t always agree with every call we make, but our aim is not to shut down discussion. It’s to keep Mumsnet a place where difficult subjects can still be discussed without threads becoming a free-for-all.

Thanks again to everyone who has shared their views.

As we all know, a post that has been edited can still be viewed by clicking on ‘edit’.

Is this true? I had no idea. As far as I know all my edits have been to add something I forgot, to clarify, or to fix stupid spelling. I'll have to be extra careful now, I suppose.

I feel I am self-censoring already, and I want to be able to talk about subjects that matter, which are often too difficult to broach in real life.

Apologies, @FlirtsWithRhinos we're looking at this now and will be in touch today.

We do appreciate it's not easy to moderate and it's all too often a thankless task.

Not today. Thanks mod team, you are appreciated

Yes, but I wouldn’t worry about it unless you said something really heinous. If you do make a mistake that you want to be erased completely for personal reasons (ie outing yourself by mistake) email MN straight away to request deletion.

When I’ve done this (not often but I have) I’ve reported my own post and explained why and it’s been deleted pretty swiftly.

@BeckyAMumsnet
I have no idea how many posts of mine have been deleted unless I return to the thread & notice. Surely we should be informed every time a post is deleted with reasons given? Otherwise we have no idea we did anything wrong & will continue to offend. I have only once had a message warning of expulsion but even then there was no proper explanation of how I had offended contrary to the Talk Guidelines.

Thanks for that. Good to know!

@FlirtsWithRhinos : "I asked for a copy of the post with what was considered a personal attack pointed out so I could rephrase and repost without the alledgedly offfending language, but got no response whatsoever."

I wouldn't rely on a company to do that. If I fear that I might be deleted for unreasonable grounds, I copy paste my posts into a document (I do this for the forums of a large German weekly, but not (yet) for Mumsnet) . For the express reason that I can then mail them with the original post, and I can escalate if necessary. Moderation counts on people being cowed by deletion, but you've a better position to argue your side, if they don't hold all the cards.

It would be amazingly helpful if deleted posts were visible when clicked on, like the edits.
Or visible to the poster, if such a thing were possible. It is a worry.

You are right, I always think I should do that, but I'm so rarely deleted and so careful to give even obviously goady posters far more benefit of the doubt than they deserve that I never think it's going to be necessary.

It's more often been due to the annoyance of losing a great post due to a full thread being pulled than a personal deletion. I think I've been deleted about 5 times in more than 5 years on FWR, and until the recent spate of hyper-reporting I think it was only twice.

I do find it very frustrating that a poster can show disdain and disrespect - bad faith in other words - by their cumulative behaviour and style of engagement across multiple posts, then demand deletion based on "personal attack" because someone got sick of it and pointed it out. IMO any poster who just groundhog days the same goady assertions over multiple threads without making reference to the arguments of the other side that they certainly know of if only from their own earlier interactions and explaining why they do not apply is in bad faith because they are not progressing the topic, they are just stuck on repeat.

I mean this is actually the problem.

For all I know i have had many deletions but no idea about it and could be on the way to being band.

Just how stupid is that.

As I posted earlier on this thread I only knew I had a posted deleted recently because it had had a number of likes.

This behind closed doors mysterious process just seems open to individuals taking a decision that someone else wouldn't.

At the least when a posted is deleted MNHQ should post and say message deleted, person concerned has been emailed and can start the process of challenging it.

The email should directly quote if it has been deleted as a result of an individual or more than an individual saying this phrase or whatever is offensive, or untrue or ...

Or if MNHQ can clearly state how the deleted message contravened one of the rules that many dont even know about and those who do not always understand.

Of course it would be polite if someone has reported a post had the guts to say this on the thread.

This behind closed doors process can not actually work in a consistent and fair way.

IMO!

I think that for whatever reason, as the moment FWR is having any number of people (who maybe coordinating or are in fact the same person) come on threads early to derail it.

Admittedly we could stop them doing this by just ignoring them.

Also it can be frustrating, so what could have been a calm and supportve thread is just niggly.

But also it is the groundhog day effect that means discussions that we could all benefit from by being able to discuss issues at a more advanced (by that I dont mean somehow intelectually superior) because that basics are agreed and it is time to move on.

So many threads just go back to entry level.

But presumably we wouldn't be allowed to say to MNHQ this is a deliberate derail, as of course the expectation is that we should be kind and give up our time to endless say the same things over and over again.

But also it is the groundhog day effect that means discussions that we could all benefit from by being able to discuss issues at a more advanced (by that I dont mean somehow intelectually superior) because that basics are agreed and it is time to move on.

Unfortunately that's not how open forums work. This is a forum open to both sides of the debate at both novice and advanced levels. That inevitably means there will always be "groundhog" day moments and rehashing of topics done before. Hell it happens enough on AIBU and Chat, it's obviously going to happen more on a specialist topic.

If we don't want to engage with novice posters / repeated ideas then that's our own prerogative, but it's unrealistic to insist they never appear.

Maybe a private forum is needed if you want to have these discussions without interruption?

I was merely pointing out that recently FWR has been subjected to what may in some instances be genuine interest to understand certain aspects.

And given the nature of FWR which should be clear from the list of recently added threads, it just seems strange that there is an upsurge at the moment.

Because by and large they dont start with a sort of thank goodness I've foudn FWR. I really want to discuss being gender critical in more detail.

Rather than ones that are basically saying this forum shouldn't exist and I am going to start a tedious got you thread to prove I am right and all of you are wrong.

Its the assumption that we should all stop and explain ourselves over and over again.

I've used this analogy before, but its the same as if I joined a forum for those who beliefe in Marxist threory and i keep starting threads about how it is wrong.

Of course if I had a huge echo and thought i know I can start a thread and in not time at all i will have convinced this deluded Marxists how they are wrong, I would do it!